The End The End The End The End The End The End And since then the story has escalated. Listen to the story as Travis Walton tells it to me in this park in his own words. This broadcast and this interview has not been changed in any way. It has not been edited at all. And the only thing that you're not going to hear is the traditional hour of the time lead-in music and the traditional sign-off and lead-out music. And you're going to hear the broadcast exactly as it was aired on June the 25th, 1993. You will clearly hear the beginning of some fabrication. But you're also going to hear him tell you that he didn't know what it was, that he never saw any alien or extraterrestrial beings, that he really didn't know what happened to him. The only time that he said that he regained any consciousness during that entire five days was just for a few moments when he felt as if he was suffocating. He was in a full-blown hysterical panic during which episode one is likely to see anything, ladies and gentlemen. And he describes seeing some kind of humanoid creatures. He doesn't know what they were. He does not say that they were aliens or extraterrestrial, nor does he imply that they are. And then listen to his testimony now. Just recently he was on an episode of Sightings, where not only did he come to, but he looked around and saw extraterrestrial beings. Walked down hallways and did things on what he identified as a spaceship. All kinds of elaborations. What I'm trying to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, is what began as a mystery that no one knew the answer to. It certainly had nothing to do with UFOs or extraterrestrial beings or anything else. Has now exploded into a full-blown extraterrestrial abduction spacecraft. They're coming to get us experience. And so you need to be able to compare all of these things. Many investigators have copies of the original testimony given to the police and to the sheriff and to the special investigator from the state of Arizona. And took the statements of all of these people in the beginning. And then later, it began to develop. And after this is over, we'll talk about what you have heard. But until you've heard it, there really isn't much to talk about. So, ladies and gentlemen, right after this, we will get right into it. And let you make up your own mind about what really happened in Arizona. And let visit us through our hotel. A Time meine collection. готов! alcohol! alcohol! do When Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. must end. Deception must end. Manipulation must end. We believe that all peoples must live their lives by the truth and by the truth only. And we believe that every single person up on the face of this earth must become responsible for their actions, for their countries, and for their countries, and for the world. We believe that racism is inherently evil and must be eradicated from the face of this earth, and this must be done quickly and completely, or we will be facing a war between the races that will be the bloodiest, most destructive, most painful, most terrible war that has ever been fought in the history of the world. We believe that the Constitution of the United States of America and the first ten amendments known as the Bill of Rights are the only documents in the history of the world that have ever truly set man free. We believe that those documents are the only barrier existing in the world right now between the common man and slavery. And that if the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights fall for any reason, if they are destroyed, ripped apart, torn asunder, superseded, replaced, however you wish to term it, that freedom will disappear from the face of this earth. Understand that we don't care where you live, what color you are, what language you speak, or what religion you attend. Everyone in this world will lose all freedom if those documents fall. Many of you in foreign countries wonder why we concentrate upon saving the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And don't address many of the issues in the rest of the world. It's because you have already fallen. You have already lost your freedoms or you never had them to begin with. Your hope lies with us. It is the only hope for the world. And if we fail, you all fail. We all fail. Humanity will take a step backwards from which we will take a step backwards from which we will take a step backwards from the world. Which it may never recover. Two on that for a while, folks. Tonight we're going to take you into the mind, into the experience of a man named Travis Walton. You may have heard of him. You may have seen the major motion picture that is making the rounds right now about his experience called Fire in the Sky. Pay close attention. This is a story that you don't want to miss. It is one that is happening all over this country and around the world to many people. It is being largely ignored by the major media and by most of the people of the world. Because it is being ignored, answers are not being found and people are manipulated by this experience. So listen closely. Help us find the answer. Well, it was November 5th, 1975. There were seven, kind of a group of men working in the forest, cutting trees. We had just finished a long, hard day's work. And we were at the time of the home. It was starting to get dark. We loaded our chainsaws into the truck. We were riding in a crew cab truck, a double cab truck, which is how seven people were not able to fit into one vehicle. And we headed home. And as we were leaving the area, we noticed a light coming through the trees. There was thick trees between us and the source of this light. And we could see this light coming through there. And there was just something really weird about it from the start. And everybody had been kind of chatting and carrying on and talking. And although nobody said, hey, look at that, right off, you know, one by one, everybody kind of fell silent and was looking off to the same direction I was looking. Well, I figured that, you know, they saw it too, at that point. And as we drilled, I was trying to, you know, figure out what this could be. I thought it might be a hunter's camp there, maybe a forest fire or something. Maybe a, maybe a crashed airplane hanging up in the tree. But, uh, when we finally got around those trees where we could get a straight shot back up through there to see the source of this light, we saw it hovering there. And, uh, we saw a, uh, large, glowing, disc-shaped object hovering, uh, in the sky. And, uh, it was unmistakable. Right off the bat, one of the guys in the back yelled out, it's a spaceship. And the boss slammed on the brakes, stopped the truck. Um, this is, this, what we saw was not, uh, some little point of light off in the sky. It was not some, uh, glowing ball of gas or anything like that. It was, it was distinctly visible. Definite, clear outline, mechanical edges. Uh, it was, uh, a glowing, uh, metallic object. It was, uh, it was the color of, uh, molten metal coming out of a blast furnace. It's kind of a, uh, golden white color. It just lit up the, the area with a strange sort of a glow. Now, Travis, this is kind of important. Did the, did the skin of this object that you saw actually glow? Or was this glow around it? Or was it a product of a whole bunch of lights? Could you discern that? There were darker areas or dividing parts to it, but there was actually light coming from the crack. It was not so bright that you couldn't look at it, but there were actually, appeared to be the surface of the crack. The crack was just lit up. There was a strange sort of glow. It was kind of like there and not there. Just kind of put a strange color to everything in the area. But, uh, seeing this thing, um, I thought, you know, kind of like when you spot a wild animal in the woods, you know, you're just going to catch a glimpse and it'll be gone. And so I thought that I missed a chance to see this thing up close. And so I got out of the truck and started towards this thing. Uh, all the guys started yelling at me to get away from there and get back in the truck. It was causing them a lot of, uh, anxiety. And I was, I was pretty scared too. But, uh, I guess I was grandstanding a little bit. And at the same time, I, I was curious. I wanted to see this thing up close. So, uh, as I went towards it, I, I could hear this, uh, strange sound that it was making. It was a sound, you know, unlike anything I've ever heard before or since. It was a very odd mixture of sounds. There was some, uh, kind of a low rumble to it, a kind of a rhythmic pounding that seemed to vibrate, uh, the ground in my body. It was something that you could, more like you could feel than hear. But there were also some high, uh, notes in there that were intermittent. At the same time, there was a kind of a whine to it, like a turbine generator or something. Anyway, it wasn't really loud. It was just kind of a, it was just a sound that was there. Was this a mechanical sound, like machinery? It did sound, there was some machinery sounds, but there were some other tones there that were just really... Things you didn't recognize. Yeah. Something that I just hadn't heard before. Kind of like, you know, it kind of gives you the feeling that you're hearing something that's kind of going off of the frequency range of your hearing now. But, um, as I got towards, uh, closer to this thing, I slowed down because I was feeling, you know, a little bit more apprehension the closer I got to it because it didn't take off. Um, immediately. Well, but when I got closer to it, it did, uh, suddenly start to move. Uh, and, uh, the sound, there was a swell, a powerful swell in the sound that startled me. And I, I jumped the cover behind a, uh, a log that was sticking up out of a, uh, some logging glass pile there. I jumped down behind the end of this log, and, uh, you know, the result, I was going to get the hell out of it because, you know, I was in danger. I raised up and I felt, uh, uh, an electric shock, kind of a numbing, like, it was almost like a physical blow to my upper body that, uh, uh, caused me to lose consciousness. I just blacked out. Uh, from that moment on, I, I, you know, I was out. But, uh, the men in the truck said that they saw a, a brilliant bolt of energy. They said it was kind of blue-green in color, uh, come out of the bottom of the craft, uh, hit me in the upper body, head and chest area. And, uh, they said when it, when it hit me that it made a sound, sort of a, kind of a whoop, kind of a sound, a, uh, a popping sound, like, uh, like a giant spark or something. But, uh, they said it looked like an explosion. They said it looked like a grenade. It's gone off in front of me. And you don't remember this? No, I, I don't remember this. This is just based on their descriptions. And some of those descriptions kind of vary. One of the guys in the original police report I just got ahold of recently described it as a long blue flame, you know. And some of them described it kind of like a lightning bolt or, or like a laser beam or something. But anyway, uh, they said that, uh, that when it first hit me that it kind of stiffened me out. And they said it threw me back through the air. And they said when my body hit the ground that I hit just as limp, limp like a rag doll. And they saw the dust boiling up around me and they thought I'd been fried, you know. They, uh, just immediately panicked and, uh, fled the scene. And they said, um, there's been a lot of criticism, um, directed at the men for, for leaving at that point. And everyone imagines that in such circumstances they would, uh, be more heroic and stand their ground. But, uh, I think it's an unfair judgment, you know. People that think they might react, one way might be surprised when they're actually confronted with the situation. Truth is no one really knows until it happens to them personally. And everybody probably would react in a different way. It's unfair, uh, in my estimation, uh, to judge that kind of, uh, thing without being there. It's not subjective. But, uh, go ahead, continue. Well, you know, this, this issue of bravery or cowardice there is something that's came up a lot. And, uh, the crew boss, who was my, my best friend, uh, got a lot of flack over, uh, over this. You know, people in the media would come and, uh, interview him. And one of the first questions was, how could you, how could you go off and leave your friend there? And, uh, you know, I think that, uh, he kind of projected this onto me, you know. He was having a big load of guilt dumped on him. And he kind of felt that, I felt that way. Did he feel that you had originally raised this question? I think he did, you know. And part of the problem between he and I that, uh, resulted in a falling out that lasted several years was, was that my brother, uh, took great exception to this, you know. Uh, especially while I was missing, you know, asking, you know, how he could, how he could just possibly, uh, leave his brother, you know. So, it, it led to some problems. But, you know, I, I have to say that these guys were in a position where they couldn't have done anything else. They were, uh, facing an unknown threat. And, you know, they had no weapons. They had no way of, uh, dealing with this, you know. Uh, they could have, uh, found themselves in a similar situation, uh, uh, falling into some of the things as me if they had tried to, uh, to do anything about it. So, um, they, they drove away, uh, in panic. And, uh, I was told that, uh, you know, all the men were, were screaming at Mike to keep going and get on, get him out of there. But they, they, they said they drove up a quarter of a mile and, you know, had a very agitated discussion as to what to do. And they stopped the truck and, and, and hashed it out. And, um, a lot of the men, you know, were, were saying, let's just, let's just get out of here and get some help. And, uh, they, a truck went by at that time, or, uh, some hunters, deer hunters. It was deer season at the time. So they took off and tried to catch the truck, uh, and, uh, weren't, weren't able, weren't able to catch up with them. So, um, they said they, uh, decided that they had to go back. Uh, not everybody was in agreement with that, uh, but the boss and a couple of other, other guys in the truck that, you know, were feeling more responsible about the situation insisted. There was some argument there about whether they would, you know, the ones that didn't want to go would just get out of the truck and stay there and wait for the others to go, uh, get help. But they were too scared to do that, so they all went back. And the reason I'm mentioning that is because, uh, this is the departure that the movie takes from what actually happened. In the movie they show, uh, Mike going back alone. Whereas they all went back. And as they approached the area, they saw the craft rise up and, uh, streak off towards the northeast. So they felt fairly, uh, secure in returning to the spot. The northeast is the Port Corners area. Yes. Thank you. Anyway. That's very important. Let's go ahead. Uh, they were extremely terrified, uh, when they got there. And, uh, they got a flashlight out and they said they, uh, went around the area. Uh, they, they, they, they found my tracks where I got out of the truck and led up to the spot where I had been hit. And they couldn't find tracks going anywhere else. But they made a search for the area, calling out. And, uh, when they couldn't find me, they decided they had to go report it. Uh, some of the guys were saying, let's just get some more help from, you know, the friends, friends and family. And get out there and see if maybe he did just wander off. But, uh, they finally decided that they had to report it to the authorities. Now, all this that you're telling us now is not your own memory or your own account. No, no, no. This is accounts that you've been told since you returned. That's what was been reported to me back in the land and some of the police reports and things I read. After this beam of light or energy or whatever it was hit you, you don't really remember anything for quite some time. Right. Okay. When, when they, uh, uh, got back to town, they, um, called the, um, local deputy. And, uh, he came and, uh, interviewed them. And, uh, and he radioed his boss, the, the sheriff in the county seat, who came there. Was he still, did they still work for the sheriff's department? Uh, some of them, uh, well, uh, the sheriff is now a county supervisor. Okay. And, uh, his under-sheriff is now driving a copain truck. A copain truck. And, uh, I think the, the, another one, uh, is in law enforcement somewhere else, the original deputy that took the report. But, um, anyway, uh, the sheriff remarked that when he finally did, uh, uh, get, uh, arrived there, and this was almost two hours later, that, uh, some of the men were still crying, that they looked, uh, extremely distraught and upset. But, uh, the, uh, sheriff and his men, uh, you know, although they could tell something really terrible had happened, immediately suspected that there had been foul play. And, uh, that there had been a fight or something, or, uh, maybe the men had, uh, killed me, chainsaws or something. And, uh, that, uh, they had buried my body, hidden my body out there and just made up the story to cover up for the deed. So, um, the, uh, the sheriff organized a map of manhunt of the area. It, uh, spanned four days using helicopters, uh, fixed-winged aircraft, uh, men on horseback. There were 50 men out there. And, uh, they were, uh, looking for a body. Uh, and, uh, they, they failed to find a body, but there was still this accusation of murder. So, uh, men, uh, requested, uh, a volunteer for polygraph tests. The sheriff brought in, uh, their top examiner, uh, from the, uh, State Police, uh, Department of Public Safety, Cy Gilsen. They tested the six men, and, uh, they passed. It was originally announced that five passed and one was inconclusive, that they didn't tell either way. But I, uh, recently got ahold of the original police report, and it was privately, uh, told the sheriff that, uh, the six men had been telling the truth, too. But since he'd become upset with the examiner and walked out, you know, before his test was asleep, that he had to give it an official inconclusive. But, uh, nevertheless, uh, this sort of took the rest, uh, in some people's minds, the idea, um, that I'd been murdered. But, uh, I, I think a lot of people weren't completely convinced until, uh, I turned up, uh, five days and six hours after, uh, I'd been taken. Where did all this take place, Travis? Um, well, the, um, the incident happened, uh, near the Rim Road in the Apache Sidgreeves National Forest. Is that the name of the road? I mean, if somebody were to go look for it, would they look for the Rim Road? Well, the Rim Road, it stretches all the way across the forest. It'd be, it's, um, it's near, it's near Turkey Springs. Okay. Turkey Springs is the, uh, was the name of the contract that we were working on, and it actually, uh, actually happened on the contract. Um, we hadn't completely left the area before it happened. Anyway, um, the first thing I recall, uh, after losing consciousness, was I was lying on my back. I was in a tremendous amount of pain. I, I didn't come to real quickly, uh, just kind of in and out, uh. You're not quite pain, Travis. What do you mean? Did your arms hurt? Your legs hurt? Was there any broken bones? It was kind of centered in my head and chest, but it seemed like it was all over. It was just this ache or burning feeling all over me. Um, I, there was a light above me, and I could hear people moving around me. Um, and I remembered, uh, at one point there, that approaching this thing, and something hitting me. But, uh, so I, I assumed that I had been hurt and taken to a hospital. And it wasn't until I finally could focus my eyes and see that I saw these creatures standing over me. And I, and I just, I just became as if I just looked out. And by creatures, that this, you did remember this. That you, uh, you, you came to slowly, you had this pain that's centered in your head and chest area, and you saw what you described as creatures. Could you be more specific? What did they, what did these things, creatures look like? Well, they were humanoid. By that I mean they had two arms and two legs, hands, you know, and like that. But they were, they were small, uh, a little over four feet tall. Um, hairless. They had very large hair, hairless heads. They were, uh, kind of a chalky grayish white color. And they, they had small features, like small nose, mouth, ears, except their eyes. Did they actually have a nose and have ears? Yes, they did. Um, and they had small features. And, uh... What was it about the eyes that... The eyes, the eyes were huge, you know, they were just these huge eyes. Uh, they just seemed to, to look right for me. They just had this strange feeling when they looked at me. There was a kind of, uh, impersonal quality there. Just a kind of a coldness that... There was also a feeling of, uh, of great intelligence. You know, just, you know, in dealing with people, when you look at somebody, you kind of look into their eyes. And for some reason, you can always gauge fairly accurately a person's level of intelligence by looking in their eyes. Uh-huh. And, uh, I got the feeling of a very high level of intelligence. But, uh, at the same time, they seemed to be completely indifferent to my hysteria. I was screaming. I just was hysterical. I was... There must have been some other quality about them that caused you to, to feel whatever it was that caused you to go into hysterics, as you described it. I'm trying to use your words so that I don't put anything on this that may not be there. A lot of people, they're trying to picture this. Well, you know, I've seen ten-foot jelly masses, you know. They see these things on TV or theater or movies, you know. The effects get so wild, these horrible creatures. They think, what's so horrible about that? If you see something in real life that is human but not human in that way, it's just, you know, you just can't imagine the situation confronting us in reality. I think a lot of that, in retrospect, is the fact that when I came to, I was in such pain. You know, I'm combining the shock of the sight of these things with this pain that I was feeling, plus the feeling of being trapped. Did you afraid the two? In other words, did you feel that the pain was a... It was just kind of an instant. It was just kind of a reaction. Were you afraid, Travis? I was terrified. It was, you know, it's hard for me to even talk about it. I was missing for over five days and six hours, and yet I can only recall just a matter of minutes of that time. And most of that was just, I was going to say, the total terror, total hysteria. Until I was finally forced down onto a table. They put a mask over my face. It was a... It looked like an oxygen mask. I didn't have any tubes up there. It was a black ball. Did it cover your whole face, or just your mouth? Just my mouth and nose. And I reached up and tried to pull it away, but before I could, I blacked out. And that was the last thing I remembered until I found myself lying, face down, beside the road, outside of Heber. We've got to take our break now, folks. Don't go away. We'll be right back after this very short pause. Hello, folks. This is William Cooper. I know that some of you are aware of this, but many of you may not be. 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You'll get Harry Piggy's report called Tackle the Debt. You'll also get a free newsletter if you mention my name, William Cooper, on protecting your future. And by protecting your future, folks, you'll be ensuring the protection of the future of this radio show, the hour of the time, and freedom for the world. So call right now, 1-800-289-2646. Don't procrastinate. Do it now. 1-800-289-2646. You'll be glad that you did. To notchologists Neverilling will not Get up great yardım To get up greatлавed From hell Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. come along and talk to you during this time? Well, it was desolate. There was no one. But when you woke up there after five days and six hours, were you clean-shaven? Did you need a bath? Were your clothes dirty? I didn't realize it. But, you know, when they picked me up and they were taking me back, I was pretty hysterical and they made references to people worrying in the church and stuff. Up until that point, I thought this was the same night. So, you know, they said, Travis, it's been five days. And that was just such a shock to me. I said, feel your face. And I had a five-day growth of beard and I just kind of latched into sort of a state of catatonia there. Did it appear like you'd been taken care of while you were gone? Yeah. Was your body clean? The physician had examined me the next day. I did remark that I was not in a condition of someone who had been wandering around the woods for five days, that I was relatively clean, except for, you know, thought of from working out there. And there were a number of tests that were run, medical tests, the whole battery of tests. Because, you know, the main thing was I was worried that there was some lingering effects here, you know. Was I going to come down with some bizarre infection that nobody had any answer for? You know, were there going to be harmful effects from breathing in an atmosphere that wasn't right for me? You know, would I, you know, did I have been exposed to radiation? But the tests came out, you know, pretty clean on that point. And right off the bat, when this happened, you know, once the men had resolved the question of murder by a kind of polygraph test, there was the accusation that, well, they just believed this happened to them. They were all out there, drunk or on drugs or something, and they hallucinated it. So, you know, one of the medical tests was that I had blood and urine samples run to the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's drug screen, which revealed no trace of any drug. And, you know, in the aftermath of this, there was an incredible amount of effort directed at trying to explain it away any way people could. It was just one allegation after another, and it got to be pretty ridiculous. Did this cause you a lot of problems in your personal life? It really did. And, you know, as years went on and this continued, then people's reaction to it was so severe that I have to say that looking back on it, a lot, a major portion of the unpleasantness in the whole retrospective of things these people's reaction to it to the point where, you know, it almost overshadows the event itself. And that's saying a lot. That is saying a lot. In fact, that's saying a hell of a lot. Did you have any support group? Did you belong to a church? Did you have, did your family stand behind you? Well, the people who knew me best were the people who were the most supportive. The people who attacked the most, the people who said the most disparaging things were the people who knew me the least and really knew the least about the event itself. They really didn't have the facts and so many of the theories that were advanced to try to explain it away were at complete odds with basic, easily verified facts. It's just one thing after another, you know. If it wasn't a drug hallucination, then it was a transitory psychosis. I suddenly flipped out and hallucinated the whole thing. But both of those theories fail to take into consideration that seven people do not have identical hallucinations. We all saw the same thing. So, there was, naturally, you know, I took polygraph tests myself. I've taken and passed three separate polygraph tests and I've undergone regret of hypnosis. And there's a lot of physical evidence that's been ignored in this case. Tell us about some of the physical evidence that we all know that physical evidence is something hard. We can feel, we can see, we can smell, we can taste, we can hold in our hands. What was it and what happened to it? Well, there was a researcher in the area, in the area right after this happened. And he went to the site and he found traces of ozone, high levels of ozone in the area. And I'm not real familiar with how he, what machinery he used to detect that. How many days after the event was this? This was, I don't know, a couple of days. Who was this researcher? It was Bill Spalding from Brown Susser Wall. Okay. He also had a Gauss meter that he took a magnetic reading. He plotted the area out on a grid map and found some incredible magnetic anomalies. I guess in the surrounding area you have a uniform reading. Whereas right at the site where the craft appeared there was some high reading like 10 or 12 plus and minus up to 15 in one spot there. Gauss, deviation from background. Also, there was a man that came to the site. I was told about this during the search. A couple of the men on the crew were present. The man was dressed in a Forest Service uniform. Now, the crew boss is familiar with all the Forest Service guys in the area. So unless he was from outside the area, anyway, this guy was kind of mysterious in his behavior. because he was taking these readings around the area. And when the men approached him, he seemed to be extremely vague about what he was doing. They tested, he said, well, test us. And so they tested the men and it was just background reading of one and a half. and they said, well, okay, we've gone home, changed our clothes and invade. So, how about testing our hard hats? And so, the guy said, okay, and they went and got the hard hats and the hard hats registered six on the dial. And this was twice that of a guy's radian dial watch there. and the man reacted very strangely to this. And when the men said, well, test the truck, you know, that was yearly, you know, he rolled his equipment up and walked away and then there was something, and there was everything reported about these readings that there were, you know, a number of witnesses. And nobody really knows who this guy was. No, not, it may have been somebody that the horse service brought out, but it may have been some government man in disguise. I don't know. But, okay, they had those magnetic readings, ozone, the radiation. There were also a number of fragments found by Mr. Spalding at the site. He said that they were small little chips of what looked like, they were shiny gray sort of, looked like obsidian. It, uh, very, very definitely looked to be like an unnatural material. Obsidian, for our listeners, is a barcated glass. Yeah. Anyway, there's no kind of mineral like that in the area. But, he found a pile of these, metal fragments, that he, uh, um, turned over to, uh, my brother, who turned that over to the people from the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, who had it analyzed, uh, and they said that it's, uh, some sort of a high temperature, high grade silicone. Uh, but, you know, that's all pretty mysterious, and the samples disappeared, I don't have any written report on that, you know, that nobody submits, and there's been material written about it here and there, but nothing real official. And it's really kind of a loose end that, uh, I think really should have been followed up on. Now, people used to hear a lot of talk about this, but nobody really, uh, as far as my, um, investigation into this, listen, so nobody really started to do any, any real research into what happened there, and nobody seemed to be interested, uh, in a big way, such as the movie that was made, until just in the last few years. Why is that, Trevor? Well, you know, I got kind of disgusted with all the controversy and all the untruths and things that were being said. There were things published that were just, one inflated thing after another just stacked upon and stacked upon. In order to review that, you just, you know, I first started to try to do that. I'd get out there and try to reput these things. I'd say, look, I can prove this isn't true. And I would document it, but it was just one thing after all. I just got disgusted with it. Well, this is the way that the, uh, euphology movement seems to operate. They're, they're, they're not professional. Anybody can call themselves a euphologist. And, uh, they tend to do that kind of thing, which is why, uh, we, we, an organization has separated ourselves from them totally also. Uh, because there is so much rampant, uh, total bullshit connected with those people that it doesn't even pay to get involved with them. But, uh, there are some people who are seriously trying to uncover the truth of what's happening. There are several different scenarios that could be occurring. One, of course, is the possible visitation in this planet by extraterrestrials. Another is, uh, that this could be a human technology and, and what people perceive to us happen may have been, uh, put into their minds by some sophisticated mind control operation. None of us really know and we're really trying to get to the bottom of this because whatever it is, it certainly means something profound for our future. I agree. I agree. You know, and as far as all those theories are concerned, even though this happened to me, you know, any one of those could explain it. I, I, I lean towards, uh, the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but I do not exclude the idea that this could be some manifestation of some Earth, uh, power, uh, at all. It, it, it, it's, uh, it's very possible. How has this affected you through the years, Travis? Do people, uh, still remember this? Do you still have problems in your personal life with this? I know that, I notice you still live in the same town, which must have caused you a tremendous, uh, amount of trouble. You know, there was a lot of stigma and all the controversy and everything, so, you know, I just kind of slammed the door on it and just refused to talk about it for so long and, and, uh, you know, I had a lot of movie offers over the years and I turned those down because I was just fed up with it and so, you know, that's really why it's, it's so long before this, the movie happened and, uh, the, the way they persuaded me to do this was, you know, the idea was if they could create something that would, uh, allow people to live for themselves, you know, what we've been through, you know, experience it on, on the gut level, you know, the, the emotional experience that maybe it would open up their mind and they'd take a more objective look at the other. And, you know, the movie's not a documentary but, as far as on the emotional, the experiential level, I think it did succeed in doing that because, I had noticed a profound change in people's attitudes in the community and, in terms of their reaction to me. Just since they've seen the movie? Yeah, I think the movie had that effect. And I've heard all kinds of things about the movie. I haven't seen it yet. I intend to see it this weekend because it's on the drive-in, uh, over in the Pine Top Lakeside area while we're up here. uh, we're going to go see it. I didn't want to see it until I talked to you simply because I heard so much about the movie deviating from your real story and I didn't want that to color this interview at all. We tried to, uh, keep anything extraneous to what, uh, to what, uh, should come out in an interview which we always hope is the proof, uh, from interfering. Um, if there were anything that you could do different, what would you have done? Uh, concerning the experience, one thing, stay in the truck. I'd have never, this thing, it'd have never happened if I'd have known what was going to come out. It seems that people who do stay in their vehicles and do stay in their trucks and don't try to approach these things when they have these types of encounters, uh, never have these kinds of problems on the norm. I mean, there are some exceptions to this, but on the norm. And it, on the, uh, on the other side, it does appear that people who do get out of their cars or trucks or do try to approach these things do have, uh, on the norm the same kind of experience or experiences like the one that you had. Uh, which tends to tell me that if you ever have an experience with an unidentified flying object at a close range, uh, stay away from it. Go try to approach it. And that would be my recommendation, too, because I don't think we know enough about what's going on to say whether it's, uh, dangerous or not. You know, I, I personally, in hindsight, can say, hey, they did return me and I'm alive, but who, who could fathom what their purposes were, you know, whether that was, uh, done out of some moral obligation or maybe some other reason they had, I can't say. So I would say stay away from it. Now, I don't want to open a can of words with this next question, but I have to ask this. They return you. Did they return anything else with you? Have you noticed, uh, that you're smarter or you're healthier or, uh, strange ideas come into your mind or, uh, or maybe you're not as smart? I don't know. and you may not even want to answer this because it might cause a whole new controversy, but, but these are the things that come to mind. Uh, why did they take you? Do you, do you have any idea? I mean, if they didn't leave anything with you, what was the whole point? I don't know. I don't know. You know, a lot of people, you know, news media refer to it real glibly as a, as a medical examination. You know, I don't know what they were doing to me. I woke up in the middle of whatever was going on and, uh, who can, who can know? You know, and it's, it's terrifying to speculate about that and I really just kind of put it out of my mind. But, uh, I don't know what the whole thing is. You can drive yourself and not just trying to figure it out because what happened to me, you know, so much seems to be a fragment. You know, there's just not enough to go on there. Did you have any set religious viewpoints before this happened to you? Yeah. Were you a member of a church? Yeah, I was a member of the church here. Which, which church were you a member of? uh, LDS church. Uh, Latter-day Saints? Yes. Have, have your religious views changed since this happened? No, no, and I, I really don't think that this necessarily has any religious implications unless your religion specifically denies such things. But, you know, I think that, uh, the green beans, the beans, uh, are, uh, over everything there is and this is just a lot of things and things it is. Did your church support you? Did, uh, the people, uh, I didn't, I didn't, Did you feel like you were on display when you went to, went to church? Yeah, I did. And so I tended to stay away because, uh, you know, people's reaction to this. I, I kind of turned inward and kind of shut, shut people out. I, I went it alone. I, my main method of coping with all this was denial. And it just sort of slammed the door on and put it out of my mind. You know, it was nothing we would talk about at home and just try to get on with life and live as normal as possible. And it took a lot of time, a lot of years before, you know, things started to feel anything close to normal. And you don't think that you were left with any message or any, uh, any revelations or anything of that kind? very certainly differ from the norm. I need so many people and, uh, talk to them who say that they were given some task to do in the future and they know that they've got this task to do but they don't know what it is and some tell me they have a message to give to humanity and that's what they're trying to do. Uh, and, you know, I never make judgments about this. I'm trying to find out what this is all about rather than judge the individual people. Uh, because on the whole, on the whole, most of the people that I've talked to, including you, uh, I believe, believe, uh, the story that they're telling me in their hearts and in their mind that they believe that what they're telling me happened really happened. Whether it did or not, of course, is, is a whole different story but that's going to be down the road when we finally solve this mystery and I think it ultimately will be solved but I don't know how that's going to be done. Uh, I tell you it's not going to be done by, um, by ignoring it and by ridiculing people who come forward with these stories. What it tends to do is people who may have experienced this tend not to come forward and so there may be a wealth of knowledge out there that we can't even get to because of that. What do you think about the movie? How do you feel about that? Well, you know, I would like to urge everyone to realize that the movie is not a documentary. You know, Hollywood does take dramatic license and, uh, if you're looking for a documentary, you know, read my book, you know, which is what the movie is based on because, you know, there I go into all the specific details about how the movie differs from the book and all that kind of stuff. But, um, the movie does succeed in communicating the feeling, the core essence of what we experience and, uh, the, the events that surrounded, uh, the, the search and the accusations of murder and the investigation and all that, all that stuff was very close to the way it really was. So, you know, you can rely on that in there. Whether it happened or not and neither did they. You know, they, they felt that since probably things had happened that I couldn't recall, that they felt justified in speculating these things. Do you think they speculated or do you think that maybe they took this from some of the stories that other abductees had come forward? that's what they said, that they took them from some other reports that they had, some of the more unusual ones that they felt would add, um, you know, visual impact to the story. But another thing that they were doing was a lot of what happened to me aboard the craft, the things that were going on inside my head, um, sorts of psychological things, things I was thinking. And since they didn't want to use a narrator, you know, that's tacky, they wanted to be able to show rather than tell. They had, they contrived scenes that they felt would evoke the same emotion as what I was telling. For instance, there's this scene where, uh, the actor is, is being held down by this membrane. And, you know, when I, when I, uh, regained consciousness, I found myself in a very cramped space, it was dimly lit. I was having a great deal of difficulty breathing. Uh, the air was being very humid and hard to breathe. And so I had these feelings of, uh, claustrophobia and suffocation that would be impossible to translate to film if you just showed, um, an actor standing there breathing hard-looking, panicked, you know, you wouldn't understand why. And incidentally, that's one of the most terrifying feelings to ever, uh, experience is a feeling of suffocation and not being able to breathe. So, you know, that was another factor concerning that that we discussed earlier about why I reacted so negatively beside of him as this feeling of suffocation too. But anyway, there was this scene where the actor is held down by this membrane. He's struggling to move. It's covering his face. He's struggling to breathe. And I think that very powerfully involves the emotions of claustrophobia and suffocation that I was feeling. Although there was, nothing that recalls that happened is that way. there was nothing that happened in the matter. You know, what? You know, I hear that God quite there was it. You know, what? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was the story. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. than you're used to. Usually people, when they're lying, they're lying on a couch or on the ground or in a bed. And when someone stands beside the bed or stands beside them on the ground or beside the couch, they look in the proper perspective. But if you were to raise that bed high in the air and have someone who's six foot tall standing next to you, they look very short. They look very small. And if you're looking at doctors and nurses who are wearing surgical gloves and gowns and their head is completely covered with masks and covering over their hair. And the only thing that is showing is their eyes. They look like hairless creatures with huge eyes when you are sort of half in and out of the anesthesia. I know because I've seen it. Only thing is, I knew I was in an operating room and I knew they were doctors and I knew they were nurses and they looked small because the operating table was raised up high. And I never once gave it a thought that anyone could mistake such a scene for extraterrestrial creatures or beings or something else. But I can certainly understand how that could happen. I don't know what happened to Travis Walton. I don't know if Travis Walton knows what happened to Travis Walton. I do know that nobody else knows what happened to Travis Walton. And I do know that his story has changed. Since the initial reports given to investigators, it changed in this interview. And since this interview was made back in spring of 1993, it has changed again. It changed last weekend when I saw Travis Walton interviewed on television on one of these shows, I forget, may have been sightings. And it had, you know, he was talking about walking around in the spaceship, watching what these creatures were doing and all kinds of different things. And, and that's what happens with a lot of these stories. I want to take your calls now and see what you have to say about all this. 520-333-4578 is the number. And, uh, now bear in mind, folks, I'm not telling you that Travis Walton lied. That's not what I'm saying. My experience with a lot of these people who claim that they have been abducted by whoever has abducted them, whether it happens in their own mind or whether it's something that's really taking place, all appear to me to believe exactly what they're telling me. Many of them do not pass lie detector tests. Travis Walton was given a lie detector test, which he failed miserably. In fact, the man who administered the test stated, uh, stated emphatically that he was practicing gross deception, gross deception. Later, he took another lie detector test and passed it. But you cannot use lie detector tests as proof about anything. You cannot give someone a lie detector test, and if they fail it, say that they're not telling the truth. You can't give someone a lie detector test, and if they pass it, say that that proves that they're telling the truth. Because the lie detector test can be manipulated. It's not allowed in any court of law because people can defeat it. Not only that, but people, it has been proven, ladies and gentlemen, that people who are telling the truth, being absolutely perfectly honest, can flunk a lie detector test, can fail it. And people who are practicing complete and total deception can pass a lie detector test. And that's why they're not allowed in a court of law. So when these people tout lie detector tests, whether they passed it or failed it, as proof that these incidents either did or did not occur, that is not proof at all. And anybody who uses a lie detector test to either support or disprove any incident is doing themselves and the person involved and everybody else a great disservice for the reasons that I have stated. And failure to submit to a lie detector test is not an indication that someone is not being truthful or that they're trying to hide something. It is rather an indication of a very smart person who knows that lie detector tests can be manipulated either way. Or, if you're telling the truth and being perfectly honest, can indicate that you are telling a lie and being perfectly dishonest. No one should ever submit to a lie detector test because they're taking a hell of a chance. And I mean a hell of a chance, ladies and gentlemen. If you're perfectly truthful and and telling the truth and and trying to be honest and you agree you you submit to the pressure that's applied to you to take a lie detector test and it comes up and says you're a liar, what are you going to do then? So lie detector tests are not proof of anything either for or against anything. Nothing at all. Here's what we know without any doubt and without going into any of the changes in the story or anything else. We know the seven men riding in a truck coming back from a day of logging saw a bright light in the woods. They all agree on that. That story has never changed. They stopped. Travis Walton got out of the truck, went toward the bright light. They saw another flash of light. Travis Walton fell to the ground. And the men in the truck drove off and left Travis Walton there who disappeared. Five days later, Travis Walton reappeared. Five days and six hours reappeared in the small town of Heber in East Central Arizona near the Rim country, the Mogollon Rim. That's all that we know about this that we know is fact. Everything else is not a change in the story. It cannot be proven or disproven in any way, shape or form. We can show how there has been a change in the story and an escalation of that change toward an extraterrestrial abduction scenario. Is Travis Walton telling the truth? Well, we don't know that. And there's no way to really tell. So let's see what you have to say about all this. Good evening. You're on the air. Well, good evening, Bill. How you doing? Good. Mike from Rochester, New York again. Hello, Mike. Enjoyed your show last night. It was really kind of a giggle. Great. But I know you're a pretty good researcher, Bill. And I was wondering if in your tenure of doing this type of work, what do you know about ball lightning? Ball lightning? Ball lightning. All I know is that it's a natural phenomenon and it normally occurs near places where there are lots of water, like swamps, lakes, rivers, that kind of thing. Other than that, I don't know a whole lot. Neither does anybody else. And it seems to be, according to scientific observation by people who call themselves scientists, some kind of a plasma phenomenon. That's a pretty good background. Well, you yourself live up in the mountainous territory, correct? Yes. It's sometimes also called swamp gas. Right. Do you think because of the possible higher altitudes, there's more of a static discharge as you go up in altitude? I don't really know, to tell you the truth. Now, he was in a mountainous area, correct, also, right? The town he lived in? Well, this is, uh, he wasn't really in a mountainous area, as a matter of fact, although this is a high elevation. Do you think it possibly was a static discharge of some type and he got hit by that and it just knocked him senseless? I have no idea. That is a reasonable and logical explanation, but it is still conjecture. Yeah. Most of this stuff is for just about all these cases. I've been kind of, I guess you could say, researching them. Just keeping up over the past 20 years and there's really no rhyme or reason to any of them. And the more you read about it, it seems the more confusing the issue gets. And then you, you know, what was that name you said? Uh, change things or change over people. There's some term you used, uh, you used it for our bell last night. Oh, oh, change agents. Change agents. Yes. And it just seems like, you know, you read this certain author and then you read somebody else. And I've heard you mention a few times, I've been listening to you for a few years and it seems like they take you up to a point and then you come crashing down. Somebody else comes up another theory and it's just, nobody's in agreement with anything. Well, they're not supposed to be. You see, part of this whole phenomenon is to keep people spinning around, never finding an answer, but always keeping their attention away from everything else and onto these kinds of things. Uh, so that they, they don't really get involved in doing the research and investigation that they should be doing about things that are really going to matter about their future. So you're just thinking it's a red herring, the whole, the whole process. Well, every, every piece of research that I have developed, uh, into, uh, the so-called extraterrestrial visitation, abductions, the benevolent space brothers and the baddies that want to eat us and suck our blood and all that stuff. Oh, you're making me laugh again. Points directly to the central intelligence agency and to, uh, uh, an old, old plan, uh, some of which I read to you last night to create an artificial threat from space in order to bring humanity together in a one world government. Oh, that's pretty frightening. Well, it is frightening. And that's, you know, uh, we had, but you see, that's what these euphoologists don't want to hear. They don't want to hear that kind of talk. They don't want to go into those kinds of, of, uh, researches and investigations. Uh, it's got to be extraterrestrial. There is no other answer to them. And everything that they do and everything that they look in and every investigation that they perform and everything that they write is meant to keep you spinning around in this extraterrestrial visitation scenario where, where you can never find an answer. And, uh, we know that the central intelligence agency, um, the many, um, uh, university departments, we know that, uh, the office of Naval intelligence, army intelligence, uh,