1 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're listening to the Hour of the Time. I'm Pooh. And I'm William Cooper. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Wait a minute. Don't go away. Who are you? To Anna Liz. Well, say it right there, Liz. Liz. All right. Thanks, guys. You're welcome. We appreciate it. All right. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Is of thee Sweet land Of Hit Be done Of thee My dreams Land, where My Father Dice Land of The wilderness Christ From evey mountains ride let freedom be my native country be land of unloved peace thy name my love I love thy rocks and will thy wood and template hill my heart is drafted through like that of love ladies and gentlemen we have a special guest tonight he's already done about 10 or 11 hours of solid back to back hour to hour speaking and teaching and illustrating and quoting and everything that you can think of he's taken us from the beginning the roots of this country all the way up to some of the problems today and solutions and he is affecting some real results welcome to the hour of the time Dan Meador thank you glad to be here Bill got to talk a lot louder well I just about run out of a voice today that's quite a labor to start at 9 in the morning and end at 10 at 9 yes it is can you why don't you give us a little bit of your background if you can Dan and tell us you had a story this morning of course we've only got one hour and after music and everything else it really condenses down to about 40 minutes so give us just a short little history of what got you started in your perpetual tangle with the federal government well in the federal government I think that I was like most people that I was willing to leave government alone if government would leave me alone and in 1992 my wife and I tried to address what we felt like was a small tax problem that ballooned into a situation that we viewed some information that was generated by Al Carter out of Provo, Utah that led us to believe that the Internal Revenue Service might not be totally legitimate and maybe we didn't know some of the tax that we originally thought that we owed and when we started asking questions one thing led to another and it turned into a pretty large scale fight we suffered considerable economic setback and out of the thing and the more we researched we found out that there was things far deeper of course what Gail and I did with respect to Master Index to the Internal Revenue laws and then we picked up on your Wayne Benson's research and then we verified that and went beyond that to demonstrate that IRS VATF and what not are Department of Treasury Puerto Rico and we for the last year or so have worked with a coalition across the country who have literally dedicated the proposition of putting government tyranny out of business in the form of IRS in 1994 partial way into this business with IRS we figured out enough that we tried to resolve some things through the court system we found that the court system was as corrupt as the IRS and without the corruption in the judicial courts both of the states and the United States IRS couldn't perpetrate this tyranny so we had to back up and start looking at the structure of courts the application of law and of course you've read enough of my material that you realize what we've discovered that they're operating both of them completely outside the Constitution so we've spent something over three years unearthing and laying a foundation in memorandums which we can use as a platform now hopefully to secure some remedies that's quite a mouthful and I'm sure there are an awful lot of people out there who have been looking for this kind of research for quite a long time we had discovered quite some time ago that they were operating outside of their jurisdiction and that the American people are really not subject if they're citizens of their states to the federal income tax but what has significantly impressed me about your work is you've taken not just your research and not just Wayne Benson's research or mine or anybody else's but the best of all of it and put it together in two public notices that are being published in legal papers around the country and of course that's just one significant step which establishes the basis for the preservation of the foundation of law if these aren't challenged on any of the points enumerated in these public notices but you've gone much farther than that you've helped people in their battle against not just the internal revenue service but the system the corrupt system in general and what I would really like for you to get into initially with the listening audiences is what are because we don't have time to do what you've done today in 11 hours on this broadcast what are some of the significant points that you discovered early on that led to other discoveries that brought you up to this point and have given you a foundation to stand upon when you challenge this corrupt system well I of course have been a publishing writer since 1969 and one of the things that I set out to do years ago was to reduce complicated issues so ordinary people could understand them and so I always look for the simplest common denominator the most conspicuous fact and for instance when I went into the court system the first time I found out that justice was not available now I equate that to the fifth amendment in the guarantee for due process of law and so I had to begin with trying to figure out what due process of law is and I after considerable research established that where the fifth amendment and the corresponding bill of rights in state constitutions assures that no person will be deprived of life liberty or property without due process what that provision is is substantial or substantive due process and the statutory court whether it's the state statutory court or the United States District Court is operating in admiralty so they're under procedural due process and it's basically color of law now when I try to speak with people who are not familiar with the constitutional issues I talk about in article one of the constitution assures that congress will commit coin and regulate value and it says that no state shall make anything but gold and silver coin hinder for payment of debt well those provisions have never been amended they've never been appealed and yet congress is not performing and the states are accommodating the fraudulent monetary system so there we have an essential fact to start from and so we have always tried to start from those essential facts and build on those and when you make these discoveries particularly in regard to the constitution isn't that prima facie evidence that the constitution is not in effect in a substantial portion of the law well ironically and I secured a lot of my answers I write letters to particularly the supreme court justices here in Oklahoma and they have been very generous in responding and they confirm a lot of research now justice opala on the Oklahoma supreme court confirmed that the statutory state district court is operating as a latest lady for statutory court and it's under non-constitutional law now the trick is to find where is a constitution hidden and that has been the laborious task and we found under the rule governing conflict of law when you introduce a common law or constitutional principle that the judge of the statutory court has to take judicial notice of it and in all cases the substantial right overpowers the adopted acts or the statutory law so basically what you discovered is that there really two courts in one court one is a judicial court and one is an admiralty sitting sometimes also in equity and whenever this happens you have to force the court in some manner to be the court that you want it to be and you always want it to be a judicial court yeah the law of the case determines the character of the court and if that is a statutory or admiralty court that a case has been entered against you then your substantial rights constitutionally guaranteed rights forces that court to close that shop and if it doesn't then the judges exceed the jurisdiction and we've had to develop and deploy strategies based on those rules that govern that court under judicial notice and present fact and judges don't like to be forced in that manner in fact some of them will just totally ignore the law in order to maintain what they consider to be status quo but you found a way to let them know that they're not going to get away with that and that they have to follow the law can you talk a little bit about that well in the survey of history civil remedy civil remedy is nearly always individual you or I gain money for someone abusing our rights or denying our rights but in the survey of history the civil remedy has never ended tyranny it's always had to be a criminal remedy it had to be prosecuted to where someone suffered something in persona a punishment for it and we reinforced this in the Nuremberg trials following World War II so we don't make any pretense that we will do everything and our power to criminally prosecute the judge who exceeds his jurisdictional authority and so far have you been able to actually find a way to really criminally prosecute these people we're trying we've initiated some complaints and are demanding a grand jury in one particular case and we've got in another case we've got some complaints in we feel like we can compel prosecution but it's of course not going to be easy because you're asking members of the fraternity to preside over prosecution of other members of the fraternity so what we're trying to do is force grand jury indictment rather than a judicially controlled indictment and in any event you've managed to literally scare these people quite a bit probably we our strategies and our purposes in what we are doing are somewhat different than most people who would rather go out here and secure a lien or something we feel like it is a criminal remedy and when you chase a judge with a criminal indictment he normally doesn't care for it much no I guess not okay what do you think the most significant event in your research over the last few years has been if there was one point along the way that you could point to and say this is what really put us in the right direction this was what got us out of a dead end street and got us moving again what would that be well I can tell you precisely when it was was on June 27 1994 when I unraveled which happens to be my wife's birthday and I unraveled so far as the Internal Revenue Code is concerned that section 7804B preserves all the process rights and you have the right to pursue remedies against bogus assessments as well as collection and the last sentence of that says that venue will be determined by existing law now that's the prosecution of the case in the location will be determined by existing law and if the federal taxing statute does not reach into the state and apply to the population at large then the only existing law is state law and that's put us on the trail which we've culminated both in our judicial research and in our internal revenue code research and it has shaped the strategies over the past two years now it's not just just the corruption of the system and the fact that you found that some of these things that we've already talked about but there is a matter of jurisdiction and venue which is absolutely crucial to what you're doing and is crucial to the state of affairs that we find ourselves in today and is really the root source of the subversion if you will of the nation through the judicial or the pseudo-judicial process as we've discovered it really is and basically what you've discovered and you can talk about these points in law if you wish and how you arrived at this and it wasn't just you it's been a lot of people across the country over the last few years seems like simultaneously arrived at the same point that the federal government really has absolutely no business no venue no jurisdiction within the several states unless they're sitting on a plot of land that was actually ceded to them by the legislature of the state for some constitutional purpose that is enumerated clearly in article 1 section 8 that's right and the judicial authority of the United States is actually three different aspects of that judicial authority prescribed in article 3 of the constitution in section 2.1 and 2.2 the first being the arising under clause where suits in law inequity might fall under federal authority now the only time that that happens is in the diversity of citizenship and in the criminal process we do not have a federal jurisdiction and in that article 3 of the constitution it says the trial of crimes will be in the state and then when we go back we know that the federal court the United States District Court is operating an admiralty and its source current source is the judicial act of 1911 and we demonstrate from that that it is an admiralty court and the statute which governs its venue is section 3231 of title 18 and then the last paragraph of that statute reserves the authority of the courts and laws of several states and then as you say the federal enclave for jurisdiction is at section 7 subsection 3 now we go back and look at the decisions that arise at or that have relate to article 3 and the admiralty maritime jurisdiction in the United States does not fall under the arising under clause it's applicable only in this geographical United States meaning districts of Columbia and Puerto Rico and other areas subject to Congress article 4 jurisdiction and as relates to international affairs it does not apply to the American people at large and that jurisdiction does not extend inland to the several states so we go back to the source which is the constitution and we work from there out to the statutory applications to demonstrate that the United States District Court does not have jurisdiction to prosecute all these crimes that they are prosecuting now I know that a lot of people when they hear you say this they began leaning back on their couch and they're all comfortable and as they begin to understand what you're saying they begin to lean up and they're on the edge of their seats right now what do you mean the federal government has no jurisdiction within the states I mean didn't the FBI just go up there in Montana and yank out a bunch of people off their farm and take them away to be prosecuted in a federal court and didn't the judge refuse to hear their challenges on venue and jurisdiction and didn't they go down in there in Waco Texas and murder a whole church full of people and imprison the ones who defended themselves or tried to defend themselves that survived and didn't they surround a small home up in Idaho and murder a woman as she held her baby to her breast and bring in over 450 some odd agents and armored personnel carriers and tanks and helicopters and what are you talking about very illegal as they be and so that federal authority has to comply with congress legislated jurisdiction so what you're saying cannot exceed it and what you're saying is these were criminal acts yes they were criminal on the part of the criminal element government now I'm sort of playing the devil's advocate because that's my role that's my role as the host of the broadcast because I'm trying to put this in perspective with the people out there who are asking those kinds of questions to their radio and of course their radio can't ask them of you but I've been telling my listening audience this for many years and you're someone else now who's telling them exactly the same thing how in the world if that is true and if the Alfred P. Neurofederal building was sitting on state land that was never ceded to the federal government how in the world can they have jurisdiction of the prosecution of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols they have jurisdiction because the state ceased performing its duty so the problem is to put the state in such a position that the state officers whether it be enforcement whether it be judicial officers or whoever assume and perform their rightful constitutional duties as prescribed in article three of the United States constitution and in corresponding portions of state constitutions you see in our in the American system tyranny never stands on one leg it has to have the tyranny by intent which is normally a minority but then the tyranny by consent by accommodation now that accommodation may be for personal gain but more generally it's out of fear the person vested with responsibility does not exercise the authority that he is vested with because he fears reprisal so you come back to the position that Thomas Jefferson said that liberty vanishes when the people fear government but liberty flourishes when government fears the people so the people have to do whatever is necessary to compel the proper authority to exercise the proper authority and to repel the improper authority okay now so what you're saying is that's what the IRS means when they say the income tax system is voluntary yeah now what we want the IRS to do is voluntarily go to jail and we're going to try to incur try to encourage some state judges and some state prosecutors to help them volunteer the same way IRS has been helping people volunteer to surrender homes properties and everything else I think it's an excellent idea well we've deployed a strategy which I hope helps us to achieve that end and I particularly through your publication of the public notice memorandum in Veritas magazine every member of congress has that every member of congress today knows that we know the truth and that memorandum has published its legal notice at least three times in Oklahoma Nebraska Montana at this present time it's either I think it's published twice in Alabama we know that it's going to go in Utah California Florida Wisconsin they're coming online and the judicial memorandum is right behind it and by the way we have taken the IRS memorandum public notice memorandum and on the 13th of the month we mailed it to Commissioner Richardson and gave her the opportunity either to rebut correct or acquiesce to that memorandum so we've cured it at the final stage now and so what happens if she fails to answer your communication well we're already using it as legal presumed fact in cases both for criminal complaints and to default support and we're also using it in administrative protests to try to resolve some things for people through the administrative process too it's having some effect the listening audience knows exactly what you're talking about because it's also read it verbatim in its entirety over the air as a public notice and radio can be used as a medium even though it's not recognized by the county or the state as a public notice vehicle nevertheless it serves as a public notice and will be published soon in a round valley paper which is the legal paper one of the legal papers for Apache county Arizona so and we're encouraging people throughout the nation to get a copy of not only this memorandum but the judicial or jurisdictional memorandum or we should call it public notice actually because that's what they are and publish them in their legal papers in their states and counties to help us establish this presumed fact in the law and preserve the fundamental law and every time this is done it makes our case much stronger now something else that I have done is in order to complete this you see the federal side and the state side both are being problematic the state district quarters or whatever it is in your state whether it's the superior court or the circuit court or whatever is operating in a de facto federal character too and so I went ahead while I was at the task and I finished up a memorandum which addresses state courts the first level state courts and the thing focuses on the rule governing conflict of law and that is how the statutory court has to yield to the substantial due process has to yield to constitutional and common law and take judicial notice whenever you go in we address the rules of the statutory court and so the third memorandum is also available although people in other states will have to spend some time studying their constitutions and statutes of their respective states but this thing has been sent out to researchers across the country and of course we'll make it available to anyone else too and we'll talk about how people might be able to get a copy of that later in the broadcast of course if you subscribe to Veritas you've already got a copy of the IRS memorandum and in the next issue you will have that will be printed again because that will be printed three times in a row and there will also be a new one which is the jurisdictional memorandum which addresses the jurisdiction and venue of the federal government within the states where it applies and where it doesn't apply and what a state is and all of these kinds of things that most people don't understand by the way on the 13th that memorandum was sent to uh sent to Chief Justice Rehnquist and also the director for the United States uh courts or administrative office so that is already in the process of administrative declaratory judgment I think it's uh it's fantastic don't go away folks we'll be right back after this short pause oh god god bless america land that i love stand beside her stand beside her and guide her through the night with the light from above from the mountains to the mountains through the ocean white with foam god bless america this is my home ladies and gentlemen the hour of the time is brought to you by swiss america trading they're our people in phoenix who hold the keys to the real money and you know why they're so nice that they will actually give you real money for that counterfeit stuff that you're carrying in your pocket you know why i love to take coin dealers to lunch because i want to make them feel real good about exchanging real worth for worthless fantasy you can't call it notepaper because you can't really write on it it's covered with ink and i guess you could use it for toilet paper if you didn't mind painting your derriere a different color but you have to understand they know what they're doing you know what you're doing and everybody is taking advantage of an opportunity right now to leverage what they have into something much more substantial you see when you purchase gold or silver coin in their various form denominations weights measurements colors with different pictures on them i don't care when you do that the coin dealer takes that money or i should say that currency no it's not a currency they take those federal reserve notes now wait a minute it's not a note what it's not federal there isn't any reserve it says a dollar on it but a dollar is a unit of measurement so you know it's like going to spend a quart you know i'm really confused what was i going to say here i started out to give you a message and i don't know how to give you that message because i don't know how to describe what it is that we're supposed to be using for money that isn't money that they call currency that isn't currency because currency has to be exchangeable for whatever it represents it's not a note because a note's an instrument of debt and can be called isn't that right i mean did i read black's law dictionary correctly i don't think i can do this commercial i'm going to have to call my sponsor and find out just exactly what it is that i'm supposed to say because i'm thoroughly confused folks and if you're confused i think you better call swiss america trading and you know if you don't want to wait for the next broadcast if i can even get the answers to these questions maybe you should just call swiss america trading and ask them what it is you're supposed to call that green funny stuff that you're carrying around in your pocket which by the way is counterfeit and there are strict laws against counterfeiting in the basement of the coinage of the united states america in fact i happen to know that the penalty for that is death now that's pretty heavy isn't it what in the world is going on 1-800-289-2646 that's 1-800-289-2646 if you find out the answer to these questions folks will you call me and let me know thank you very much oh god bless america land that i love stand beside her stand beside her and guide her through the night with the light from above from the mountains to the prairie through the oceans white with foam god bless america my home my home my home my home sweet home my home Ladies and gentlemen, our conferences are so thorough, so complete, so engrossing, so educational, that lawyers come here to get their graduate degree in law. And I have an attorney standing right here with me. Did Dan illuminate the subject today? Very much so, Bill. And I'm going to do what you always tell us and what you told us again today, listen to everybody read everything to check it out for yourself. So I'm not going to endorse necessarily everything I heard, but certainly some interesting things. And like we were talking about earlier, it's hard to realize sometimes that you've been playing checkers on the chessboard. Or in some cases, Chinese checkers. Yeah, exactly. But certainly it wasn't. And you came here hoping to be able to pick up some of these things. Oh, certainly. And I've been a listener of yours for some time. And your information and your program has been more valuable than any that I've found. Well, thank you. Mark, if you had to do all over again, and you went back to law school knowing what you know now, how in the world would you, how would you approach it a second time based upon what you now know, if you had to do all over again knowing that they're going to intentionally try to mislead you away from the foundation law that this country was built upon to the corrupt system that is practiced in the courts? Well, I think that it dovetails with what you have said all along. And that is the people you've got to think for yourselves. And as you discussed yesterday, when you elect a sheeple to Congress, all you've got is a sheeple in Congress. He doesn't become instantly more knowledgeable than the general populace. And I think the same thing for anybody. So I've been on a quest for the truth for the last three years or so. And I think that learning to think for yourself is quite a task these days. It's difficult, isn't it? It is. It's painful. Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it. Well, Dan, you know, in your dealings with the courts and with the judges and with the lawyers, of course the judges have been weeded out through a process of initiation and seeing if they're going to play the game and stuff like that before they're put up on the bench. But you run into lawyers all the time and people who are in the legal profession. What do they think about all this? Do you find that some of them are willing and able to learn and help? Or do you find that they really would rather put obstacles in your way and would really rather not see you coming down the street? I know there's got to be some of them who are looking and watching what you're doing and some bells are ringing and some lights are coming on. Do these people show promise in becoming allies? Well, for example, I told you that I've had Justice O'Polla on the Oklahoma Supreme Court has answered two letters, answered very penetrating questions as early as 1994. Now, he confirmed an amount of research, and in fact, whether or not his subtle terminology was intended to provide me a clue, gave me a launch pad in a couple of instances. The Chief Justice of the Oklahoma Supreme Court has answered a letter where she didn't really have to. She confirmed that my contention that non-attorney counsel is legitimate in the courts of Oklahoma. And I asked her own question. I said, where do I register? With Oklahoma Supreme Court or Oklahoma Secretary of State? Well, now she avoided the question I said I asked, and I knew better by then. She said there is no registered non-attorney counsel. But she acquiesced to the law as I had demonstrated it. So now I have her confirmation letter to go in if someone wants to argue about my serving as a counsel for someone. I've had some determinations by some judges who complied with their rules. And I won cases because they complied with the rules. So not every judge who sits in the statutory court is by intention a crook. Some of them enforce the rules. And basically, if they'll do that, then we have a fair chance and we'll fight a good fight and win on substantial due process. I know increasing numbers of attorneys who are looking at their profession. And like Mark, who was just here, they want to know more. In fact, I think today, Gail took checks for two different law firms that ordered my material because they want to know the truth. So, no, I don't condemn all attorneys and I don't condemn all judges. I think we've got friends in the cast. What I've discovered and what others have discovered is the more that you actually know, I mean legitimately know about the law, the more they respect you and are willing to help you, the less you know they actually become contemptuous toward you. And not only will they not help you, but they'll do everything they can to make sure you lose and go to jail if it's in their power. There has to be, based upon that, some type of an elitist attitude at play there. Where does this come from? Well, I think that, I think probably law, being a mercenary profession to start with, attracts an abundance of those types of people who are there simply for self-serving ends. And the court has operated in a certain method for so long that you challenge the law or challenge their authority, they think you're crazy to start with. And it offends them for someone to have the audacity to say that they aren't Jesus Christ. And so when you run into the people who are egocentric to that degree, then you've got problems. And unfortunately, there are any number of people in the law profession, both on the bench and just practicing law, who have that disposition about non-attorneys. Now, I've had people ask me this question. I'm going to ask it of you. Because, quite honestly, I've never known how to answer it. Maybe you do. But, all of these people who are obviously involved in the subversion of this country and the destruction of this country from within, claim to be loyal Americans, claim to care about freedom and about the Constitution and about the principles and ideals upon what this country was based. Now, how can they claim to be good Americans and know that what they're doing is destroying America? And there are so many of them, and it doesn't even bother them, that what they're creating could eventually destroy them. Well, they sell out their own children and grandchildren. That's what I can't understand. And when I was involved with a lot of people in county government, I promise you, they were good friends for a period of years. And then we had a dispute over what IRS was trying to do and what I was telling them that IRS couldn't do and asking them to comply with the law rather than kowtow to IRS. And they respond out of fear, fear not because they're hostile towards me, but fear of their own loss. And so they will become accomplices to destroy their own friends rather than risk loss. So I think the other side of tyranny, the accommodation of tyranny, is largely fear on the part of people who are in positions to where they're afraid they're going to lose for themselves. Now, that's been a major part of this conference is instilling to the attendees here the fear is really the major weapon that the subversives within this country have that they use against us. In other words, that's the major instrument of the destruction of the judicial system, the destruction of our communities, the intimidation that makes you do something that you don't have to do that's not required by the law, such as filing income tax return, and many other things. And I think part of our efforts here has been to teach people that fear is the instrument of your own destruction, and we have to learn how to eliminate that fear from our life. And at the same time, understand that if we are afraid, we have to be very careful how we interact with those that we are afraid of because it's used literally to destroy us. And so until we learn to deal with that fear or eliminate that fear altogether, it's not wise to get involved in things like you and I are involved in. Well, but it's, and I used to tell this to county officers. I told them, you know, after IRS came to our house and ran into my wife with a wrecker, terrorized my grandchildren, I told the county officers I didn't, that the tyranny was going to end in Kay County if we had to clean out everything from the state house to the outhouse. But when I was in somewhat of a calmer mode, I used to point out to those, if they will check in Revelation, that the car is going to go to the same pit of fire and brimstone as do the liars, thieves, whoremongers, and murderers. That that fear is the greatest sin man has. And it's the greatest destruction that we have. And that's, you know, again, we go back to the principles of the Nuremberg trials. And the accomplice, by consent, whether it was for personal gain or out of fear, suffered the same punishment with the perpetrator of the tyranny by intent. And we have to realize that that standard is absolutely necessary so that the government fears the people rather than the people fear government. What are some of the victories that you've had, Dan? Can you sort of, within, you know, five or six minutes, go over some of the significant victories that you've had or significant moments that have convinced you that there is an avenue or at least the beginning of a flicker of a light at the end of the tunnel that we might be able to follow to get out of this wilderness? Well, of course, we've unraveled the Title XII of the United States Code almost to the same extent that we did the Internal Revenue Code, which is banking and banks and banking. And we've had some victories there, some preliminary victories, and we've learned some strategies. We've got some cases pending. We've either stalemated or got dismissals on actions out of statutory courts in several states, which we count as victories. We, for about the last 18 months, have been working with people in up to 40 states in the effort to try to find administrative remedies to the Internal Revenue Service problems. And we have, I feel, along with what other people are doing, in the last 18 months forced the Internal Revenue Service to change strategies about three different times. You've also forced them to return seized property and release liens, or I should say notice of liens. They never had a legitimate lien to begin with. They're not very good about removing the liens, but we've been able to intercede on a few garnishments and things of that sort. So we feel like that we have a, and I don't want to talk about this particular strategy, but we think we have the ultimate answer to the lien problem. And we will test that here in the next two or three weeks. Great. So has there been a clear-cut, significant victory along the way so far? Well, any time that we have been able to secure the return of people's property or get the IRS to lift leveries or to eliminate assessments or to quit pursuing people for audits or to back off and say, well, maybe you don't have to file that return, I had one of the people that I work with who uses my material out of Georgia, just I talked with him yesterday, as a matter of fact, and he reported having interceded on garnishments in North Carolina and California just last week. So there's two more, and there's enough of those from not just me, but other people around the country using our strategies that we are enjoying some success, and sometimes it's not successful. Now, when they seize property and garnish people's wages, take their homes, take their belongings, they don't just take property, they take lives. They take photo albums with all the baby's pictures from the first day they were born. They take personal items that can't be replaced. They take all of these things. They take records. And once they take them, unless somebody like you comes along or somebody figures out a way to force them to return these things, which is extremely rare, people lose their, they lose everything. They lose their whole life, their memories, their records, their lives. Well, isn't that correct? The catastrophic element goes beyond IRS because once IRS commences on people, it puts them in financial jeopardy. And even if IRS doesn't get it, the banks or whoever the mortgager is gets their homes. They wind up in just utter life destruction. One of the people that we work with, we had IRS kept badgering the family to the point the woman had a miscarriage, and she was in the hospital the morning after the miscarriage, and the revenue agent who had scheduled her for an appointment called her up in the hospital and raised hell because she was in the hospital and not at that appointment. But that demonstrates some of the callousness. The Tuesday before Christmas, year before last, I got a call out of Bixby, Oklahoma. A guy was calling from a pay phone, and he had, I forget if it was six to ten IRS people armed with vests in, carrying out his house, and they carried out everything to the kids' piggy banks. And he had a wife who was suffering from terminal cancer, and they took everything with the children's beds, and they did not take the unopened Christmas presents under the Christmas tree but hauled everything else off. And they did that just capriciously. There, it appears to me that these people sometimes are just not human. It's like they're not anybody that we've ever known. I mean, the worst people I've ever known would never do things like that. It's incredible. We have had some victories along the way. When we published in issue number six our headline article, BATF IRS Criminal Fraud, or actually it was IRS BATF Criminal Fraud, and outlined the results of the research of several people. A significant portion of it came from Wayne Benson. Some of it was mine. Some of it belonged to other people. It may have even had some of your research in there. Shortly after that, the IRS came under tremendous fire from people in Congress and across the country because we had revealed things in that article that were never known before, especially to the general public and to many representatives in the House and senators, just had no idea that these things were true. And they were forced to stop performing random audits, and that was one of the great things that happened because we published that story in issue number six. Shortly after that, because we had obtained part of our information from their own historian, they called their own historian on the carpet, and we had to run another headline story outlining how they were persecuting their own historian, and had ordered an investigation of the historian to find out how we had obtained the information that we did from the historian. And now that person is no longer in office as a historian with the Internal Revenue Service, but another outcome was that they were not filing their records and papers and history with the National Archives, and the director of the National Archives has now ordered the IRS to cork up all the missing documents and put them on the record. So we are making headway. Well, when? Okay, go ahead. We expect to be in congressional hearings possibly before the end of the year. We've heard that from a member of the Oklahoma congressional delegation. And there is a representative out of the southeast who wants to put together a redress of grievance for the House Ways and Means Committee. Wonderful. We're out of time, folks, and I really sincerely hope that you've got an awful lot of information out of this. If you want to get these public notices, either subscribe to Veritas, and I'll tell you how to do that tomorrow night, or order the next issue. It will have both of those in there, and we will have, and you can get that issue for $3, and it will have in there, hopefully, if I can make a deal with Dan here somehow, for him to be able to provide you with a computer disk with a lot more information, including those on them as he has done the attendees to this conference. Good night, folks, and God bless each and every single one of you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. God bless the U.S.A. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I thought to be an American, when at least I know I'm strange. And I won't forget the man who died, who came and cried to me. And I finally stand up next to you and defend her till today. But there ain't no doubt I got this land. I said to you and me.