Yes, I am, yes, I am, but I am. It is, I am, and it is over. Yes, I am through the results of the true world, where we are from, that we are from the sea. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're listening to the Hour of the Time. I'm William Cooper. Ladies and gentlemen, we continue today where we left off yesterday with the question and answer session of the Texas Best Seminar, which took place in Austin, Texas, in June of this year. So just a month ago that this seminar occurred. The BATF agent, it is a BATF agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, is Senior Special Agent Littleton is the man who is being questioned by the audience. I think we'll get through the rest of it today. I don't think there's that much more to go. So this may be a short broadcast. I'm not sure. But we're going to find out. So don't go away. We'll be right back after this pause to resume the question and answer session with Senior Special Agent Littleton of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Text. Yes. I'm OK. I'm OK. I'm not good enough, sir. If I had intelligence information on that individual, like you people have, you're very capable of your intelligence system, with your informants, with your confidential informants, with your confirmed confidential informants, to get an arrest warrant for anyone and have them picked up. As in the case of Mr. Koresh, at least two days, perhaps a week before, when he was struggling for a wake-up. Now, there's no getting around that at all. Now, I'd like to know, if you're looking out your window one day, you're home minding your own business, and you look out your window and you see approximately 100 people approaching your home, automatic weapons, helmets on, dressed in black. I don't know if you can interpret ATF or whatever on there, but I would think that I would be a little bit concerned about somebody's going to try to use some deadly force on me. And I don't think I'd have the courage to step outside, as Mr. Koresh did, when this thing started, to approach you peaceably. But yet the lead started to fly, and he can argue back and forth about his story, I guess. I'd just like to know, though, what happened to the door, the very piece of evidence that would have proven what shots came from where? You see, that's crucial. There it is. See, I know dumbass. I know a thing or two about law, and I know a thing or two about evidence. And that was a very, very important piece of evidence that seemed to come up missing somehow. Now, another question I have. You know, you're used to deadly force politics at the ATF. Can you just kind of, in 20 words or less, can you tell me what just fine use of deadly force in the ATF? Is that what the question is? Yeah. Yeah. So, deadly force is to protect the lives of other people, protect the lives of your fellow officers, and protect your lives. Okay. It's an imminent danger. Okay. Second question here, and I'm going for this. Did you order a billboard here to knock down a wall in a house that you knew had women and children in it, perhaps injured individuals? Did you order that? Did I order it? Yeah. No. Who ordered it? I have no idea. Again, now I come back. You were there 1,100 feet from there. 1,100 yards. 1,100 yards. You could have jumped in the rear, you know, pickup truck, drove up there and tried to stop what's happening that day. No, because when it started, I was getting home. I drove. Now, wait a minute. You said you were 11? I was 1100. I drove from my residence when I saw it on TV, and I drove up there. Back up there. I was not there when it started. No. I just have a real problem with the violation of Posse Tomopatis. I have a real problem with the fact that gas was used. Gas that was widely known to be personagenic. And you people in the federal government want us to believe that you care about our children. You've got to be out of your minds. And I'm going to read on this. I do hope. I do hope that you people in the federal police organizations, I do hope you'll stop and remember from time to time that I know y'all got a herd of y'all out there. You could blacken up a license. We've got 300 million firearms on our side. And I think that one or two of us know a thing about pulling the trigger. And if it comes to shooting wars, we won't pick ourselves. We're going to back you up all the way. But I still hold true to the fact that if I saw a co-worker or I see another human being out there what he's wearing, and he's over here, he's going to use deadly force, I'm prepared to put a round in his head. And I don't care who he works for. It is a damn fine shame that they weren't going to bunch of bucks around back then to surround you bastards and take you down here. Thanks for coming, sir. My name is John. First of all, I just want to say whether anybody believes it or not, this gentleman up here is stating the official position. He is here officially. I would not believe anything that the ATF or FBI said at this point. My question, sir, is listening to your comments, you seem to be really dangerously ignorant of what all is going on. And I'm wondering how people in the ATF and the other federal agencies formulate their opinions about what the truth is in this country. Do you get your information from ATF management? Do you get your information from the propaganda bureaus like the Energy Information League? Do you ever, currently you've never watched any of these videotapes concerning Waco? So my question is, it seems like it's real dangerous, the lack of knowledge, that's what I see you guys have. Okay. I thought my mom did was just on my own. Sorry. That's it. Agent Littleton? Yes. Now, this is a classic thing. We saw this in the Miriamir files in 40-60s in Europe. We saw Jones, SS, and also regular army saying, oh, it was my commander, this commander, that commander, and I was up there doing my job. And then you say that you haven't seen Waco, a little bit of engagement because that was up in Academy of War. And it's not somebody they cooked up. It came out to sit in hearings with Alan Spector and others. So to sit there and to say that you haven't seen the footage, even the third generation, it's very obvious. They have one of the inventors of player technology who works for the Pentagon. They're saying, well, this is automatic weapons fired. And then they laid the team out of town and show where all the machine gun nets were. And it shows 60 minutes with an air or a port of infrospection that does work for the AGF. We did a study and said yes. And they show people exiting and entering the building, firing automatic weapons. You see an incendiary device, several of them being fired in from those round grass and fountains, those incendiary grenades. And I understand that the AGF needs more funding for Comrade Clinton and the Clintonistas. We understand this. And we understand that we have the footage of y'all loading up the cameras and going out to kill a bunch of tourists. And I'm sad that your agents, some of your agents got injured and killed. And I'm not going to sit around and make threats. When it comes time for me to leave my parents and my girlfriend and my life, I will for my country. And I really don't want to die because I left this country. But if I have to die for my country, I will. And I think I can see that little gleam in your eye. You would almost laugh when you would say, I can't talk about that or I have no idea about that. You, sir, look like a gangster. You look like a criminal. You're weak of it, sir. Well, that's fine. That's fine. Well, no. No, it's not personal. It is personal. It's a huge... Well, this is a fact. It's a huge deal. This is why I don't come here. I never will come again. But this is what it comes down to. I'm going to turn to talk to you and tell you that I've read the Constitution. I know what's going on in the country. I know about West City Ford. I know about FEMA. I've been around in the National Park. I've seen the executive orders. I know what's going on in this country. From Oklahoma City, the World Trade Center bombing. The October 29th. New York Times 28th. Even in Texas. I've got a copy of it. In my car. Did the BACF and the FBI help the terrorists cook the bombs? Andre Stossman, the American Army. Carol Howell warned the FBI on the BACF. It doesn't matter. Y'all stare at these hornet's nests to have media events to stare at the sheep. And frankly, it's sick. And it's sad. And it is a nature of power. That all you are is a Roman centurion and all the rest of your type. And I know there's a lot of good people that have left your agencies and have left all the apparatus of control. I want to know why you haven't seen Waco Wilson engagement and why you weren't calling it. And you said you were 1,100 yards away from the back of the building where all the automatic weapon fire was coming from. You saw it. Sir, there's footage there. There's tape of it. You want to give you one of the tapes? Yeah, that's right. It's a half time off. Perhaps you're not a tape. I was sitting there. That's just power hungry. No. Let him respond. I have to say, there was no automatic weapon fire coming from the back of the building. I'd like to see the tapes. I haven't seen those. There's a lot of them at the video store. Oh, why don't you call Seastone and get a copy from them? Okay. I'll do it. And everyone's TV. That's how I can throw it. That's his. Okay. You scare me. CMO local police train with you guys with black sea masks and 390,000 police officers and 490,000 police officers. And they're building helicopter bases here in Travis County. Damn it. We've been sucked off for so long. We pay 62% to stuff on the tax. We just wallow around and fell like a bunch of little pigs at your feet. And it's good enough because you're insecure. And deep down inside, you can make the rationales all day. We're self-righteous. We're doing what's right. I'm nonviolent, giving in, defending my country from what's coming. And we see it building up. We see it preparing while President Clinton wallows over in China. So you, you have no soul if you do not come to grips with what really happened in Waco because you obviously don't even comment on all the missing evidence and on everything else that has happened. The front bureau to the flare footage and then the Oklahoma City with the cyber graphs and general partners. So much. There's so much going on. So much evil. So much tyranny. So much barbarism. What do you think when you walk into your office and there's all these little fleets of minions? It's sad to me. They need to go work for the mob or something. At least they're, you know, working for themselves at night. They're not acting like they're criminals. They're not acting like they're criminals. And we are judging the group for whom you will. Just whom you will. I heard you say early on that in your opinion, the people of Waco got was over gold. Would you say that? I think I have, yes. I think that for your one year in the beginning, the others, you want to comment on it? I guess. But I said they got what they deserve. What I meant was they told you themselves. Is that how I tell you that? I didn't tell you that. I don't tell you that. I don't tell you. I don't tell you. You know, I said, maybe it was Reno, who said that whether they're glad about themselves or not. You have children that were killed by their very own government. And that's you. And I am absolutely, I have not been this upset for years because I want to know what does it feel to work for one of the most hated groups in this country other than the IRS? How are you doing, Tony? Glad you're here. I've got a couple brief questions. It was stated during the hearing. It was a matter of who the Congresswoman lost. Everybody knows. The question was put before them, did the FBI fire one shot? The answer was no. I'm asking you, do you know, did the FBI fire one shot or 1,000 shots? No. After that took over? Yeah. I have no idea. Second question, sir. Do you know that there were any foreign groups on that soil? No. My knowledge there were no foreign people on that soil. Well, the really United States of America forces, armed forces, mining, marines, that type, there. On the compound rails, in the area, I'm not going to know. I don't know. What about the human vehicles? No, I'm not going to know. Sir, I think we can prove that to be alive every evening. You ask me what I know, I'm telling you what I know. Right. I'm telling you what I know. I like the answer. It's the first. I'm doing the stuff. If y'all can do anything you want to, all I can affect the situation is what I know. Yes, sir. I'm trying to help you. I was about to say I will give you a copy of the rules of the engagement. Yes, sir. Lastly, I'm having a lot of trouble controlling myself yesterday. I'm an ex-recon marine. I'm an ex-recon marine, and I was in the jungle to get a plan. I drove out in the middle of the night into the jungle in a Cambodian way house and did some things for this government to win against all the rules and regulations of Waco. I can believe this could happen at Waco. Do you honestly think, sir, that that was a fair thing to do at Waco? In your heart. Your heart, sir. I would like to know your heart. To start to walk, to go through the whole thing, to kill people in the manner that they were killed. And I don't want to start to suck that gas into my room. And I want to know your heart, sir. I don't care who was right or wrong. I want to know your heart. Thank you. I did. They were supposed to come out. They didn't come out. I have. You said you were 1100 yards and back at the top of your gutter row. I can understand things. First of all, I want to know, have you been back to Waco since that time? Have you been back to see any of the damage that was done? No. Yes, there is something left. There was a tank track on the concrete. There is thin airy floors on the concrete. Yes, there is something left. I can understand that you wouldn't see the machine that the automatic machine then fire from your vantage part because I got into the whole country and probably didn't have the best advantage. You did, however, see the two tanks. Did you not? Did you not see the two tanks raining in the building? Yes. I am glad you are here. And, uh, I am glad you are here. Oh, no, no, no, no. How are we all right? I am glad you are here. I am glad you are here. You are the first live ATF person. You know, I am the TV news and everything. And I have my opinions as well. When you first sat up there, you stayed in the country. You are a boy from the country. We are all presidents and all of you here. I am glad you are here. I am glad you are here. I should say it all right? Let's cut it off for a second. Let's get... no, seriously, cut it off. I mean, let's get down here. I mean, it feels like a pecking order, you know, we are not here to kick on you. We're Texans. We're Americans. We're human beings. We care about people. We care about people. We're looking back for you too. You're talking the truth that you know it. Yes, sir. We're talking the truth as we know it. When we're opening our eyes, we're saying, look at something besides Twitter. What somebody lays down. Get a second opinion, okay? And that's what I'm saying here. You know, people ask you for an apology. We're not waiting for a potential apology. There is a lie for a human lie. It's done the way we did, whether it's APF, or whether it was advanced evidence, or whether it's a bad thing got run over looking at the scene. You know, we're human people here. That's what we're trying to do. We're about to look alive. And that's why everybody's in this room. And we're coming from afar. We want you to see these things. That's why people want you to look at this room. We want you to engage them. Okay? And study. That would be a good idea to take a look at that book that you recommended. Yeah, that's good. That's a good point. I'm going to say, if you ask us to record this report, I think it only kept the report. You don't hear it. You don't hear it. You don't hear it. Because we take a look at that report. And then I hope that we can come off in six months so that you can understand where this is coming from. Because we're on the mountain tour. I hope that you're on Sunday, not only an official, a papacy, but to come and listen. And listen to what's going on. Educate. And the best way to change is from within. You know, we're for truth and justice. You know, and we want the light to shine. The world really shines. And we love you as a person. Okay? We don't like the things that they see up there. There's not, maybe I don't agree with the religious beliefs of the people that were in the building or what else? Because human beings, we live in one world. We live in one red, blue model. We live in half people being loved. That's why I actually take the coat off. You don't want to say, hey, you know, you know, this happens. If you do apologize, apologize for me. Okay? If you feel like this is needed to be, you don't have to do any kind of video for the same being, especially if you call it. Thank you for doing that. Okay. I live in Yoko. And I'm with that for 28 years in law enforcement. If you can't answer some of these questions. And I truly believe that you're not sorry. Please resign. I'm not going to put any more here on you. I just want to say the book he's talking about is a copy of that book in the State Library. On the third floor, you don't even have to buy it. Thank you. Thank you all very much. Now, folks, what we're going to do here is we're going to ask many of the speakers for the day to come on up here with Dale so we can get started. Can I wait for a minute, please? Okay. Now, one more. I've been two hours. Okay. I'm one of the survivors. I was talking about. I was there when the shooting started. And I don't know when you said you were in the back of the building. No. No. No. No. I was there when you were in the back of the building. I told it to the grand jury. I was in the back of the building and three helicopters came in shooting. And what they were doing was coupling David's room. In fact, when Jack Sooning got up in the trial, he said he had been in there and it was like two sheets. Now, they said, before the shooting started, there was no shooting there more. The first thing I heard was the sound of the helicopter because they were on top of me. And then I went to the window. I saw the shooting. I heard the shooting. I finally, three months later, realized that they were taking them trying to kill David. The police room extended out on the south, from the south of the building and that's where they were hitting. They were down there around. I was the only one apparently that saw that. When the, when the helicopters turned, they were on the northeast side of the building, so it turned to go to the north, the north, well, I got to the floor because I could see that the helicopters were between the second and third floor. and I began to question what I had seen. It was such a shock to me, I couldn't believe it. I've seen plenty of war movies. I came through the second world war. But I never saw it in fact, in reality. And when they just turned, they said that everything was very dead quiet. And then after they had turned, and you understand, I didn't see anybody, I didn't see anybody in the helicopters. They asked me that. I said, no, I was looking at them straight forward. But there was a girl up in the third floor. She was a person that had a 50 to 80 percent of her body affected by the fire. She's over in England now. But she gave her story. And when she did, I heard it. When I heard what she said, she looked out her window. This was where the helicopters were turning to go to the front of the building. She saw the men in the helicopters that were uh, tug guns that were doing the shooting. And she confirmed what I had seen. And so, I know who shot the first shot. And I told them who shot the first shot. Now, by the time they get to the front of the building, see, I saw the two trailers come in. I was on the bottom floor and I went, I took the papers, the newspapers got trapped up to my room, put them on the board. I was going to lay down and read them. That's when I heard the helicopters. By the time they turned around to the front of the building and then turned to continue firing, then all hell broke and then I went out into the corridor to leave. I left the second of March with the tape that David laid the first of March in the evening. When I stepped out, there was an A window that had a glass in it. All the Venetian blinds were hanging on one side. Now, I know there was nobody up those windows because all the women lived in those rooms and they were on the floor over the children. to protect them. And I said, they couldn't shoot until I saw somebody in the window. Oh, I heard for it. Don't move. And from all the things that have been said by our Republican governments is lies. And it must be furious to think that we have no enemies around us. None of our neighbors were our enemies. And if the government feels that it's right for them to come in and just shoot them at us, and they, when David opened that door to let them in and asked them not to use their guns because of the women and children, that's when they were shooting at them. That's when they started shooting in the front. And one of the men that I had worked with for years and who traveled because of the things through her publishing, who was one who was one that was shot and when I tried to find out what the government said about his body, they tried to tell me that he had committed two of that and his stomach was just as smooth as a baby. But he had four or five bullets in it because I talked with another man that held his hand while he was strained. and he had committed to the people and the people in their own country. They wouldn't leave that gap on their own family because everything is for all. So what more is you coming on? I heard him who say one thing that gave me the right to come on. Well, don't say it was for guns. Yes, it was. It was not. It was. Now, we'll tell you a little story. That was what the want was for? I'll tell you a little story about the gun. There's two stories on it. One is that Henry was the one that gave us a license to work under him. And the reason we did that was because we had called everyone in from all over the United States and all over the world because David was given this very deep study and he couldn't get it if he weren't there. Now, they had gone over to chest him and when they got there they said David Koresh, David Koresh, David Koresh, David Koresh. And they said who is this? And he got on the phone and called David and David said come to come here. Come here. I'll show him. I'll show him. And he knows that he'll stay here. Brothers tag him and the fear here. Oh, we don't want to do that. We don't want to do it like that. Who will always do? They knew you see there were no guns there except the ones that had been shipped in in a box. No ammunition. Nothing else. Just a handgun. And you know, you can't do much with a gun unless it had some ability in it. And they were passed away. Nobody was throwing a box. And I don't think there's more than two or three guns there. because I know that Paul and his young son had taken everything we had to a gun show because that's what we were doing at that time so we could survive without someone having to go to work. And believe me, the people that I lived with were not yourself and they weren't stupid. We had people that had graduated from Harvard, Canadian government for the schools where she laid out their policy for the children to follow. And most of them from England, the social workers, they all had very good positions. But that didn't matter, did it? Nothing mattered except they wanted to kill us all. Nobody wanted to kill you. And the gun was found, guns were found, ammunition was found, there were no guns found. But there was. I'm sorry. There was. And your information about the helicopters and stuff like that, you can hit the raw footage on that and you can see the helicopters and none of them. I looked out the window and saw them. And so did Margie. Heard of Margie. Margie explained it. She explained what she saw with the men there, what they've done since they're shooting and all. Anyway, I feel sorry for you. You're a sad human being. And I hope that the day will come when we realize their position before God is going to be so much and I think that's all I have to say for you. That's all I have to say for you. I'm very serious when I have to go. I have kids that I have to go pick up from the babysitter and I cannot be worried. It was made very clear to me. However, I want to make it very clear again. I want to thank everybody for coming today. This is going to continue as soon as I leave. First of the remarks I'd like to make at this point in view of what we've had here this afternoon is basically addressed to Agent Liddleton. so I hope we won't leave. I'd like to address my remarks to you rather than you leave at this point. I understand that your remarks here today are in an official capacity and I really understand why you can't deal opinions or say too much because there is a civil case pending which involves the ATF agents. I don't know whether you're named in that case or not but I understand that from an official capacity you can't say too much. You can't admit too much because it will be used in evidence perhaps. I would like to believe the official reports that both the Treasury and the Justice Department put out in their review of the case their so-called review of the facts I have copies of both of them and I was there like yourself. to reiterate David's words on one of the negotiation safes he was very sad that there were agents that were fooled. He was sad there were agents that were wounded and I feel the same way. but if you can honestly look at stories that are told we have to admit that the government's story is not all the truth there is it's a one-sided view there may be many of them many agents that were there that have their side of the story that they firmly believe in and there are survivors who have their side they have every reason to be angry like yourself you lost friends somewhere in between there's a balance of the truth not just our side and not just your side depending on what you were what you saw what you heard what you experienced is where your prejudices are you hold no malice so the ATF or the FBI would be find it very hard to believe them and to trust them because if they were so right in the stand that they took and in the way they performed their task they would not need the lies and the covering up and the losing of evidence and the delaying in the courts they would be more than happy to have the truth come out may not be your fault that the bill was missing may not be your fault that they were shots fired from the helicopters but I think in all honesty as a human being you've been long enough in the bill that for home tobacco and firearms we've seen a lot of things that were wrong nobody climbs any corporate ladder without sacrificing principles I don't care I don't care whether it's a business or a government agency or a law enforcement or even in a church we see all kinds of things go on that are wrong and there are those who turn their back on what is wrong in order to succeed in order to get their benefits every time and see their kids put through school or whatever their excuses and their reasons are the APF is not without hope the FBI is not without hope and I am not without hope David's big concern was for the safety of not only the people inside the building but those on the outside of the building on February 28th it did not have to happen that way the truth of the matter is very plain David could have been approached prior to February 28th he could have been approached on February 28th in a peaceable manner and all this could have been avoided you may feel justified in firing because you are trying to protect your offices the people on the inside that did fire probably do feel justified in responding to protect the women and children and perhaps their own lives but it's a situation I'm sure there was fear and panic and all kinds of feelings on both sides on February 28th if there were a bunch of crazies that just wanted you all dead you'd have been all dead there was no ambush 50 50 or 60 people standing at all the windows with machine guns and bazookas ready to blow you away or you would not have any APF agents walk away after two and a half hours even if you still had some ammunition that was that was not our intent that there should be any shooting and we were made to pay for defending ourselves for 51 days by another agency which I understand you're going to absolve yourself from being the FBI who also justify everything they did the torture and the lying because they feel we brought it on ourselves we refuse to come out like you said those reports show wrong doing in the APF they show wrong doing in the FBI and I believe myself in a court case in front of a jury that all the evidence could be brought out would be a terrible thing we've asked for that and the government be it the APF or the FBI assuring for all they're worth because they don't want to go to trial despite the case of one who fears he is justified in being protected by his position in the agency for shooting Vicky River he doesn't fear he should go on trial he should be exempt maybe you feel the same way for some of the officers involved in Waco but if the truth's ever going to come out then it needs to be allowed to come out and it needs to be early evidence needs to be put out on the table for not just the jury and the courts to look at but for the whole American people you cannot just tell our side and you cannot tell just your side and come to the truth because we're both biased I hope during the months years whatever remain for the soul to go through that somehow there can be some kind of reconciling some kind of acknowledgement and above all I believe what would have pleased David the most would be that those that were part to the raid and to the seeds that followed could somehow ultimately learn the truth that David tried to put across and to have a part in his kingdom that was all he was interested in was the saving of souls regardless of what you may think of him his lifestyle or his teachings or what took place for 51 days David was very concerned for souls and that's what we're about and we would love to see you all saved but I want revenge I don't see any more people killed on either side but unless they're willing to be honest with one another and face up to the things that we or the government perpetrate and do and take a stand about whether it's right or wrong and not based on the facts and not on our loyalty to our agency or whatever then we will have other Wacos we will have other situations where people will feel justified in resisting abuse of power or violent entry from some precepts let me just say in closing that I am sorry this ever happened so we'll begin by having you sit down let me ask the speakers that are here for the day to come on up to the front the other speakers are there for the day all the important here and everybody hold on for just a second before you join your words because we just want to talk a couple of minutes here we'll wind up and let us wind down here and go on out of here that's one of the things that takes the best time to apologize is we're able to bring together some situations that sometimes are a little different and that's one of the things that we want to maintain here is an open atmosphere for everybody to be able to come and speak and talk about different things and for this time I'd like to turn over for closing to some of the people that have spoken already today and some that haven't just say a couple of closing statements and that's the end of the tale ladies and gentlemen and I can't say anything more I can't add anything to this because if I do I'm going to get extremely angry and emotional and I might say something that I might regret so I'm going to end this broadcast right now I was at Waco Texas I saw what happened in performing my journalistic duties and reporting I was taking photographs and had a gun pulled on me by an ATF agent I know who these people are they're scum if there's a beast they're a finger of that beast good night and God bless each and every single one of you I should see vemos what everything comes Ladies and gentlemen, this episode of the Hour of the Time will be rerun this evening in the Round Valley of Arizona at 8 p.m. If you know someone who needs to listen to this broadcast, please have them tune in to 101.1 FM Eager at 8 p.m. tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.