The end of this hour the evening was a 27-year-olddbeing. And finally lighting the scenes were 3D- cult. The End The End For those of you living in the Round Valley, we are getting a new antenna for 101.1 FM, which should triple our signal strength, just the antenna alone. We're not going to add any more power. We're at the maximum legal power that we can do, but we can add an antenna that will multiply the signal strength by about three times. We also have now our amplifier for Channel 15 for the Round Valley TV, and that's cost us a bunch of money. And it's being built from scratch, especially for us. It was hard to find. It took us a long time. And I've got to publicly thank Scott Becker for that. Now, stay tuned for Part 2 of Waco, A New Revelation. And make sure, folks, you buy the videotape. We'll tell you where to get it tomorrow night. Watch out, questo. I'm glad you could make it. I'm glad you knew you were me. I'm glad you were me. Never in human history has so few taken so much from so many as America's Illuminati and their warlords of Wall Street and Washington. In just eight years, these gangsters and international government gangsters took us from the greatest predator nation to the largest detonation on Earth. Our standard living has dropped like a rock for four out of every five Americans. They have foreclosed on our homes, our farms, our factories. They've exported your jobs and surrendered our arms. They want you to know. New world order. New world order. New world order. The Illuminati wants you to get a slave. From burden to grave. The banksters own the Federal Reserve as private. They own it. It's neither Federal nor Reserve. The cashes make that fiat funny money stuff you call dollars for two pennies. They lend it back to us at full base value. They charge you interest. They charge you interest. You get the debt. They get the interest. They get the gold. You get the job. They watch this gold. New world order. A new world order. A new world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. New world order. there was a conscious decision made to not collect evidence for any sort of serious examination other than to try and prove that the Davidians had weaponry and firepower enough to kill federal agents. Some of these bodies exhibited characteristics of perhaps being shot. Did anyone fire from any other location? The information that we've always been given was that there was no federal gunfire on the day of April 19th. Well, in reviewing the photographs and the 302s, the statements in them, I would say there are some questions that need to be answered. The FBI named the sniper positions Sierra 1, Sierra 2, and Sierra 3. On April 19th, FBI Special Agent Charles Riley stated in his after-action report that he had heard shots fired that morning from sniper position number one, the undercover house. The position was occupied by the Blue Sniper Team, led by Special Agent Lon Horioji. Horioji stated that neither he nor his snipers fired their weapons on April 19th. The fact that Agent Horioji states in his 302 that the snipers at Sierra 1, which was the undercover house, did not fire and there is a shell casing, an expended shell casing that is visible on the floor, would also raise a question. Four expended shell casings are later found at Sierra 1, the location of Agent Horioji's Blue Sniper Team. What makes this particularly interesting is Mr. Horioji, coincidentally, happens to be the FBI agent who shot and killed Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge and is in charge with manslaughter by the state of Idaho. In August 1992, white separatists Randy and Vicki Weaver were involved in a standoff with the FBI at their mountain home. Agent Horioji shot and killed Vicki Weaver, who was standing in the window of the door holding her 10-month-old daughter. She was standing there holding a baby in her arms, holding the door so we could get in after they'd wounded me. And this guy is still running prey. According to an internal federal government investigation, Horioji's shot is termed unconstitutional. Lon Horioji was never tried. Seven months later, he was the leader of the Blue Sniper Team at Waco, accompanied by most of the FBI team from Ruby Ridge. Our desire was to get them out, to use non-lethal means in a systematic manner so that they would come before the bar and face justice. We did not want this to occur. At some point, we had just upped the ante. He was continually fortifying. He was demanding and was seeking provocation to get into a shootout with us, which we were refusing to do. According to the FBI's on-site activity log, at 9.03 a.m., FBI command advised Sierra 2 that an unknown subject could be seen traveling on foot at the back of the building. In this aerial photo, taken at approximately 9 a.m., a Davidian appears to be leaving the building and walking toward the back of the compound. The log indicates that Falcon 2, an FBI helicopter, took off to intercept the subject. As it approaches Mount Carmel, several flashes can be seen coming from the side of the helicopter. Dr. Edward Allard, a former supervising scientist in video and television imagery at the U.S. government's Ninth Vision Directorate, examined the helicopter footage and concludes that the flashes are gunfire. Dr. Edward Allard, a former supervising scientist in video and television imagery when we analyze these flashes, as we have done, in 1 60th of a second time frames, it appears that there's three shots coming from the helicopter, but in fact, each one of those three shots can be broken down into 1 60th time frames, 60th of a second, and we find, for instance, in the first flash, there's five separate shots being fired. And it's indicative of a machine gun that's firing at about 600 rounds per minute. In this view of one of the FBI's helicopters, a pedestal-mounted machine gun can be clearly seen in the doorway. FBI agents did not return any fire throughout the entire day in spite of being fired upon numerous times by occupants of the compound. On the other hand, since this is on a helicopter, and people might say that it's reflections from the windshield, it's impossible for these shots that you're seeing with your own eyes to be solar reflections, because if it were so, the helicopter would have to be violently moving back and forth like a mirror in your hand. And this is impossible. So it's, in our opinion, it's clearly machine gun fire from the helicopter. In coming out, the conversation, as I remember, was, well, if we come out, we'll be shot. According to the autopsy reports, Philip Henry was shot several times in the chest, shoulder, and head. Jimmy Riddle was shot once in the forehead. Neither of them had foot accumulation in their trachea or bronchial tubes or carbon monoxide in their blood, indicating that they died before the fire started. Later, when I saw the autopsy report and seeing that he died of a gunshot wound to the head, it made me wonder if it was, in fact, the snipers that were in the barn, garage, that was in the back of the property. The autopsy reports also indicated extensive body mutilation to Philip Henry and Jimmy Riddle. The entire right side of Riddle's body, from the shoulder to the hip, had been thrown away. In previous testimony, Dr. Nizam Thirwani, the medical examiner, observed that this could have been the result of the collapse of the building or an encounter with a tank tread. Philip Henry's body was interred during the year following his death. However, a new autopsy was requested by Jimmy Riddle's relatives to settle the circumstances surrounding the missing portion of Riddle's body and the gunshot wound to his head. Dr. Ron Grazier, the forensic pathologist who conducted the examination, concluded in his findings that the damage to Riddle's skeletal remains is consistent with a tank having torn the body apart. A forensic examination of the bullet entry wound in Jimmy Riddle's skull could not be conducted because the evidentiary portion of the skull was missing. Dr. Pirwani performed the original autopsy and was asked to provide a certified copy of his report for comparison. According to Riddle's relatives, the local Texas authorities and U.S. Marshals refused to allow Dr. Pirwani to turn over the documents. We got to Dr. Pirwani's office, trying to get the information on my brother, Jimmy Riddle. Dr. Pirwani told me that he didn't know why. They kept trying to keep the information from us. He didn't know what they were hiding and that he had the information, but he was ordered by the U.S. Marshals and the JPs not to release any information to me. While Americans were watching events unfold at the front of the building, the FBI's infrared video shows what took place at the rear of the structure. What a clear really does is it takes invisible radiation, which is called infrared radiation, and it converts it into visual radiation, you might say, that we can see with the eye. What we have here is a tank infantry type of an operation. As the tank moves forward, two men have dropped out of the escape hatch. They roll over, and as they roll over, they open up with automatic gunfire. We've measured the actual time of the individual flashes, and they occur at a fraction of a second, in some cases, a thirtieth of a second. There is absolutely nothing in nature that can cause thermal flashes to occur in a thirtieth of a second. Somebody related or who had prepared a film or analyzed a film, representatives of the department and representatives of the FBI went over it in detail and concluded that there was no basis for suggesting that shots had been fired. As the tank crushes the roof of the gymnasium, gunfire can be seen streaming into the dining room from physicians in the courtyard. I stopped counting after about 62 individual shots. Interviewed on NBC's Meet the Press on May the 4th, 1997, FBI Director Louis Free stated that No shots were fired by any federal agents outside of the compound, and that allegations raised about gunfire seem to be based on some inferences from infrared flash patterns and heat patterns. I think the overwhelming evidence clearly shows that no shots were fired. It's indicative of sunlight reflecting off something and registering on the flare. It could be a thermal pattern. If it were a thermal pattern, there is nothing that persists from that. So therefore, it is more likely to have been reflected light off of something shiny in which the sunlight now gives an apparent temperature on it. From the basic physics, it's safe to say that it's impossible for the Waco FLIR to detect any solar reflections of any kind. On our wish list as investigators was taking a harder look at the FLIR. The congressional staff was never able to find or take advantage of a genuine FLIR expert to watch the FLIR video with us and to understand exactly what we were seeing. By comparison, this Department of Defense FLIR video, taken in Somalia in October of 1993 as troops exit a helicopter, shows gunfire similar to the thermal signature on the FLIR videotape at Waco. A former analyst from the U.S. intelligence community, Maurice Cox, tested the FBI's claim, applying the principles of solar geometry. For an aircraft flying at an altitude of 9,000 feet, a flash anomaly occurring on the ground would be visible in an area only 100 feet wide. Frame-by-frame measurements of the FLIR videotape showed a repetition of 10 flashes per second, the same rate as a machine gun firing at 600 rounds per minute. According to the Sunlight Reflections Report, in order to duplicate these multiple flashes, the reflective surfaces would have to be exactly the same shape and size and positioned in an array too precise to occur by chance. To record sunlight reflections at 10 flashes per second, the FBI's small aircraft would have had to travel at Mach 1.8, nearly twice the speed of sound. The Sun Reflection Report concluded that the flash signatures on the Waco FLIR video could only have been caused by gunfire. In January 1999, Mr. Cox challenged Director Free and Bureau Scientist to disprove his findings. They did not respond. If someone comes to me to understand that data, I need to tell them the uncertainty associated with it. if the government is only telling them this was not a field of fire, well, the government is refusing to look at this and anybody with their plain eyes could see, well, something's going on there. You know, when you think of the fact that shooting automatic weapons fire in the building with children in it, there's something wrong. Dr. Allard has stated that this video shows gunfire being directed into Mount Carmel from the outside of Mount Carmel on April 19th. The only people that could have come from would have been federal agents. other flashes can be detected on the clear tape within an hour of the fire, such as this detonation in the courtyard, which has a thermal signature that is consistent with a hand grenade exploding. And more gunfire can be seen near this tent. But if the FBI's claim is true and the hostage rescue team didn't fire at Branch Davidians, then there is only one other possibility. According to what we saw written in the book of mayhem, we were to undergo a military-style attack. We were to be attacked by tanks and people from the military. On the use of military personnel and heavy equipment against U.S. citizens or other questions linger. How much was used and why? There was concern expressed that the FBI had only one hostage rescue team and they were tiring. Do you recall that conversation in that meeting? I recall. I believe I asked for that meeting. On April 14th, just five days before the fire, a meeting was held between Attorney General Janet Reno, the FBI command team, and Special Forces Commanders Brigadier General Peter J. Spumacher and Colonel Gerald Boykin of Delta Force. The purpose of this meeting was to convince Reno to authorize a final assault at Waco. Military is trained to find, fix, and destroy the enemy. You don't worry about warning your military enemy of constitutional rights. What is generally known or known in public as the Delta Force is in reality called Combat Applications Group. So anybody who asks about Delta will get told with a straight face by the Army that no such organization exists. What organization does exist is Combat Applications Group and their fated mission is to perform counterterrorism operations overseas in defense of the Earth. Inches. Earlier in an opening I gave this morning with regard to the Posse Comitatus Act just to refresh my colleagues' memory. The Posse Comitatus statute is a criminal statute that states that it's a crime to use any part of the Army or Air Force to enforce the laws of the land unless authorized by Congress or the Constitution. There is, in my judgment, it is absolutely clear that no law was violated. No action was taken that comes close to violating Posse Comitatus or any other law. General Huffman, is that your... Do you agree with that? Congressman, so far as the Army's involvement in this I would say that is correct. Yes, sir. Mr. Mani, do you have any Army Delta in currency or any other military operational assets? The question is are we getting any help from the military? The question is are we getting help from the Delta team and we're not. In mid-March 1993, I attended a senior executive staff meeting at CIA headquarters and it involved senior agency management along with the liaison officers from the U.S. military and particular from Delta Group. the briefing centered on Delta's operations in Waco, Texas. This previously classified military document confirms the presence of Delta Force at Mount Carmel. With approval of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, an observer was deployed to the scene on March 21, 1993, accompanied by three other operators also characterized as observers. One particular soldier was questioned by a member of the hearing and pressed and pressed. He did not want to reveal even the existence of Delta Force and finally had to admit that they were present. Originally, I was told that there was just going to be one or two Delta personnel there as observers, but during briefing, it was mentioned that there were over 10 Delta operators at Waco, Texas, and they were not there merely as observers, but would be participating in any type of operational or tactical effort against the British Dominions. My understanding is that in some way, the U.S. military, Delta Force, were advising the hostage rescue team from inside the tanks or inside the Brady fighting behemoth or were present at the sniper posts to provide support or assistance. And those types of activities, to me, would mean forward deployed. They were not back at a conference room or table giving advice or saying, you ought to think about this. They were out there working shoulder to shoulder with the HRT. Parking away, a year after the Waco incident, I was deployed overseas in Europe and I had the chance to meet some of the Delta operators that I had been on previous assignments. They had told me on several different occasions during my meetings with them in Europe that not only were they forwardly deployed at Waco, Texas, but they were actually involved in a gunfight with the bridge for videos. When you see the individual roll out from the tank and come around the side and start shooting into the building, what they're doing is they're fending the vehicle. If HRT or Combat Applications Group, whoever were pulling the triggers, expected resistance, expected shots to be fired, then their moves on implementing made tactical sense. But I did talk to some Combat Applications Group guys, and they did confirm that yes, the portion of the B Squadron were there pulling triggers. There's no doubt in my mind that the flashes on Flirt Day was fired from any automatic or automatic weapon fire being returned into the building. I mean, it's inconsistent to even think otherwise. There were people here on the ground with automatic weapons and flashes such as that only come from one thing, it comes from rifle barrels that are firing back into the building. There were operators that penetrated the building on several occasions, planning surveillance devices, listening devices, sensors. And on one occasion, I believe it was April 17th, late 17th, early 18th, a crash was actually within six feet of one of the operators. And they radioed back to the Taxi Operations Center for permission to grab them. Within minutes, the word came back to the Justice Department to know we already have a plan in place. That plan, of course, deemed what happened on April 19th. To me, that would be an offensive gesture. When you enter someone's home, that's pretty offensive. And I would personally have a problem with that. I think that it violates everything that I've been taught that you don't use the military against civilian personnel and the military on the stuff. I've got other reports that the military Delta Force may have been involved in one way or another. Will you make an inquiry to that as well? We will pursue any issue that is in question. I will not let this become a show try with law enforcement as the defendant. These Waco hearings must not degenerate into a kangaroo court. It is unfair for us today to look at what law enforcement did at Waco in a vacuum. And it is unfair to twist the facts, making law enforcement the villain and David Koresh the lawbreaker, the victim. David Koresh, you may not think he was innocent. The mothers and the fathers of the children, you may not think were innocent. But those 17 children that died here were truly innocent. We had heard during the meeting various scenarios that they were going to use down in Waco, Texas to try to bring a speedy recovery or a speedy end to what was taking place down there. And at that time, gas was talked about. A couple other situations, non-legal situations were talked about. And the primary concern around the table was a lot of the people that, a lot of the branch of the Indians that were inside the building were willing or did not want to end their lives in such a fashion, especially the 17 children that were down there. This is God's death. On the throne, you've got a point. Where's God's death? He's going to save you. I'll come. Well, people ask why would we let the children out? If they saw all that was happening and they were in there with their children, would they have sent them out to the animals outside that were shooting at them and doing all those terrible things? No. Federal law enforcement officers obviously did make some tactical errors prior to and during this tragic incident and I hope this body, somebody, holds them accountable. Please, I'm pleading with you, somebody out there in the federal government still screwed up big time, okay? But they didn't start this fire. Based upon the ATF's arson investigation, accelerants were used at all points of origin of the fire. There is no disagreement between us that this fire was intentionally started inside the compound by the people in there using flammable liquids as he saw them. I don't remember who it was, but he was pouring this liquid on the floor. The public was saying, don't pour it inside, pour it outside. Folks, I have to break in here and tell you that the fire was started inside the building by flamethrowing tanks and by members of Delta Force and the FBI HRT who went in the building and poured accelerants around the building and then set them on fire. We have the proof on videotape. And we are in the process of assembling that tape for release to the public. So, you have to be careful when you listen to these scum-sucking, lying, puke-faced, Nazi, Gestapo, jack-booted thugs. Sometimes they tell the truth, but you don't know how to distinguish that the truth itself can be a lie. It was clear to us from listening to those tapes that the government was going to be able to prove that the Davidians, at least some of the Davidians, had a plan and that some of the Davidians were aware of this plan. I'm sure that the FBI down there had a lot of fiber optic audio and visual equipment installed in the building there. I'm sure they knew exactly what the British Davidians' plans were, what their intentions were, if there was an attack against the building such as a gas attack like that. They believed we were going to try to enter the compound and the way the overhear sounded, like if there was one comment, we're going to wait until they come in before we light it. Why in the world would the FBI make the assault knowing that information? The borderlines on criminal misconduct for the FBI to make that assault when they knew that he was going to respond like that, particularly on the most windy day of the year. The FBI claimed that it never used... pyrotechnic CS rounds, munitions capable of starting a fire. However, in this footage, made prior to the fire, crews Fordhi responded to the fire. According to CS expert, Colonel Rex Applegate, any tear gas that creates smoke is considered pyrotechnic. There's been some unfortunate reporting talking about that if tear gas were utilized, it would deprive the children of oxygen and it perhaps could be fatal. What they were describing is not the type of tear gas that we are using. We're using a non-tyrotechnic type tear gas, which does not deprive them of oxygen, so it is not a lethal type gas. This is the US Military Mark 651 CS projectile, recovered in the aftermath of the Mount Carmel fire. It is pyrotechnic and has a burning time of 25 to 30 seconds. It generates a distinctive cloud of white smoke. I am very, very troubled by the information I received this week suggesting that pyrotechnic devices may have been used in the early morning hours on April the 19th, 1993 at Waco. At this time, all available indications are that the devices were not directed at the main wooden compound, were discharged several hours before the fire started, and were not the cause of the fire. In the fall of 1998, unprecedented access to the Waco evidence lockers was granted. The pyrotechnic projectiles identified in the Klemstein photos were missing from the evidence boxes. However, two additional 40 millimeter munitions were found. These devices are identified by the manufacturer's literature as pyrotechnic rounds. They were found in the rubble behind the compound. These munitions were examined, and the preliminary results indicated these devices may have passed through the wood structure. the arson report fails to identify the specific instruments used to ignite the gun. the fires or the individuals that might have used those instruments. as a result, no arson charges were ever filed against any of the branch Davidians. We found the government's own pyrotechnic devices at the points of origin of a fire. His flash bang device, for example, was found in the rubble of the dining room. The flash that results as the detonation of this charge can cause a fire in any area where there is a high concentration of volatile vapors. In the evidence locker, there are six pyrotechnic flashbang grenades mislabeled as silencers or gun parts. According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, they were found in the southwest corner of the building, the dining room, and the chapel, all three points of origin of the fire. Now maybe the government, the FBI, the ATF did some wrong things, but they didn't light the fire. They didn't start the fire. That is not one of these questions that is very debatable. So, I have to break in here and tell you folks that that is Congressman Schumer, probably one of the greatest, most despicable liars that's ever lived. He easily surpasses William Jefferson Clinton, whom we all know is probably one of the greatest liars that ever lived. He is making those statements subjectively, not objectively, and not based upon the evidence. In other words, he is trying to browbeat the witnesses. Mr. Schumer is the liar. There are times when you cannot keep your job and put alternative explanations for data on the table. Any of us can think about, yeah, we'll stay in a building burned up. I don't think many people would do it, and I don't understand why they didn't come in. At 12.10 p.m., the FLIR videotape shows at least two automatic weapons being fired into the back of the burning dining room, the only undamaged exit from the building. And what we have is we have them firing automatic weapons, and they're firing into the burning building. And like some sort of a cowboy movie, they're retreating down the building and firing as they're retreating. I cannot remember something more sickening that I had to do to witness this. According to the Justice Department report, at least 15 people were found shot to death at this location. The FBI conducted ballistic tests, which the Justice Department later termed inconclusive and rudimentary at best. Whether or not you argue that some people committed suicide, yes, that may be. But I would say the majority of the people, the bodies that I saw, were clear-cut homicide victims. When there was shooting going on and things like that, it was kind of tongue-in-cheek to then turn around and say, well, why didn't you come out? As a peace officer, you're trained that killing people and taking someone's life is the absolute last thing that you ever want to do. Period. You signed on to help people. You didn't sign on to kill them. If the opinion is rendered that there was no shot fired from any other location other than from within the building, i.e. meaning the branch civilians shot themselves through suicide or homicide, then the government is left with a position that we are not going to do ballistic tests on anyone's weapons, whether they be bureau officials or other officials that might have been on the scene. The forensic evidence on the bodies themselves is very troubling. The bodies were preserved in a frozen or near-frozen state inside two trailers for the purpose of examination. For some reason, those trailers who were under the control of the FBI were allowed to not have any electricity running to them, and the bodies deteriorated beyond which any sort of forensic evidence could be gathered. We were very, very troubled by that. The crime scene was declared a biohazard, and since the FBI predetermined that this was a mass suicide, the crime scene investigators were instructed to sift, wash, and bleach the evidence associated with the bodies, destroying much of its evidentiary value. During the siege, some of the women and all of the children were sent to the bunker, located in the center of the compound. The bunker was an old church records vault which had survived the fire several years before. It is here that the remains of some of the women and the young children were found. Based upon the fact that the majority of the women and children protected themselves by dousing themselves with water and blankets, trying to keep the smoke to a minimum, trying to prolong themselves or life in a nearly fireproof container, clearly demonstrates that they weren't embracing the flame, that they were trying to flee the flame. According to their autopsy reports, some of the children were still alive during the fire, but based upon the condition of their bodies, there was evidence of a deadly explosion. The fireball was created by a ruptured propane tank on the ground adjacent to the bunker. But a large hole in the roof of the bunker has never had an official acknowledgment or explanation. What it tells me is that you have a demolition charge went off on the river. General Ben Parton, a former military explosive expert, testified that there were two explosions. This footage shows the detonation of a high-explosive device on the bunker, which appears to ignite gas from a ruptured propane tank. The bunker was found in the bunker. After completion of the FBI and Texas Rangers' investigation, the bunker went bulldozed into rubble. Six years later, in 1999, permission was granted to test the residue from the blast. Strangely, however, that portion of the bunker was not found after a thorough search of the rubble. That's a charge. I mean, it's just a little thing. A little thing from a one-year-old. Yeah, see this? Boom. Yeah. Do you know? According to the FBI and ATF investigation, the Branch Davidians did possess some low-order explosives like gunpowder. But this would not be capable of penetrating six to eight inches of steel-reinforced concrete like a high-order explosive such as TNT. I read a part of an affidavit submitted that said that the FBI, on foot, entered the building, shot the Davidians, and planted an explosive device on top of the church vault that he called it. We referred to it as the bunker because it's a concrete cinder block. The blast hole at the top of the roof, you can clearly see the rebar that's sent in. The damage to the stainless steel refrigerator, which appears to have been under the blast hole, is consistent with a shape charge. And the blasting directed downward into the room in this enclosed concrete room would very likely cause some steam rupture and create a huge overpressure inside the room that would pretty much kill everybody in there. Anybody who was under this device when it was blown would have been horribly mangled, probably dismembered, pretty much like being thrown into a grain thresher. Having examined still photographs and videotapes of the bunker, it was apparent to me that this was caused by a shape charge. But what bothers me is who would have the audacity to use such a charge? Rather than risk your own people going in there and trying to shoot it out with them, it's a standard tactic in city fighting and military operations to build up terrain, to use explosives in this manner to kill people in the targeted room that you're going to attack. The military's advice for the FBI was that it should focus on the leadership and capture or kill David Koresh. It was to our benefit that we were able to prevent him from tearing up the second part of his prophecy, and that is that he intended to kill as many members of law enforcement as he could before his members were killed. It was to our benefit, and we're most fortunate, that none of our people were injured. It was very obvious that the effort that was demonstrated there assured that there would be no survivors in the church records as well. What were the roles of Webster, Hubble, and Vince Foster? Who actually made the decision to use CS Gas with 22 children inside the Davidian compound? After two years, why is there still no clear answer? Rangers had difficulties working with the FBI, but they had a major responsibility. We had our responsibility, and they seemed not to go hand in hand. And as I recall, I testified before Congress about having a name in the White House I could have called to solicit the support of the federal authorities in our objective, and it turned out to be Vince Foster. Mr. Hubble, do you recall a meeting on or about the 14th or 15th of April that you attended with Vince Foster, with Mr. Nussbaum, and I guess some others, which was really a turning point. Did you or others at that meeting recommend, or was there any discussion about the use of military force or equipment? There was not any discussion about use of military force. There was discussion of having the military evaluate the FBI's plan. The briefings by General Schumacher and Colonel Boykin of Delta Force gave Attorney General Janet Reno the assurances she needed to okay the FBI assault plan. Presidential Counsel Vince Foster was the White House's point man for the Waco affair. Ninety days later, Foster commits suicide. He had a lot of things on his plate at the time. The firing of the travel office being one. But nobody was killed in that one. What I think was really on his mind was with Waco. To this day, I don't understand what he meant by the FBI lie to me. Mrs. Foster said that her husband was depressed about a number of matters, and she ranked the Waco tragedy very high, as any of us would who were responsible for such an activity that resulted in such a tragedy. In this FBI 302 report, Mrs. Foster indicates that her husband was troubled by the deaths of the children at Waco and believed that everything was his fault. When you are troubled by something, and you feel responsible for something, you can only feel responsible for it if you could have done something about it. Perhaps Mr. Foster felt that he could have done something about Waco, whether he tried to intervene, whether he was overruled. The extensive use of governmental privileges against grand jury and criminal investigations has, of course, been a pattern through this administration. Most notably, the White House cited privilege in 1993 to prevent Justice Department and Park Police officials from reviewing documents in Vincent Foster's office in the days after his tragic death. The day after Vince Foster died, I got a phone call from a fellow who used to be on my squad who told me that they, not explaining who they were, that they had agreed that the FBI was going to come over and do a regular crime scene search of Vincent Foster's office. During the Whitewater investigation, Deborah Gorham testified she saw a Waco file in the security file cabinet next to Mr. Foster's desk. In addition, Michael Chertoff, counsel for the Senate committee, inquired about a letter by Vince Foster involving Waco. Neither was ever recovered during or after the crime scene search, and their whereabouts are still unknown. However, White House Secret Service agent Harry O'Neil testified that Maggie Williams was seen removing files from Foster's office the night of his death. Thomas Castleton, an intern and Mr. Foster's assistant, testified that he had also removed a box of files. Just to let you know where we are in the state of the record, we have received evidence that, in fact, the box was in Mr. Foster's office. Did you understand the box you were taking up was a box of files that originated in Mr. Foster's office? I did understand that, sir. You heard that from Maggie Williams? Yes. And, in fact, it was Maggie Williams, the chief of staff to the First Lady, that you accompanied in taking this box up to the residence, right? That's right. What were you told by Maggie Williams about why the box was being taken up to the residence? I was told that the contents of the box needed to be reviewed. Reviewed by whom? By the First Lady. Maggie Williams was Mrs. Clinton's chief of staff. Maggie Williams took out, you can't call her anything else but what it is. It was evident. One of the interesting things that happens in an investigation is you begin to get anonymous phone calls. And we, in fact, received anonymous phone calls from Justice Department managers and attorneys who believed that pressure was placed on Janet Reno by Webb Hubble and pressure that came from the First Lady of the United States. Now, we believed that because the military was President Wicker in some capacity that the President may have made a decision to allow that to happen following some sort of a legal protocol where he says this is of such a serious nature that he would be involved. And we asked for those documents and asked to see National Security Council documents. and were not provided with any information that enabled us to reach a conclusion. It's a serious allegation that the President interfered with, changed, moved up the decision. And we can't just bandy these things around unless we have some real evidence. If combat applications group was on the ground that day, actually pulling triggers, the origin of that operation would have come directly from the White House. It would have come from the President. Because combat applications group is, for all intents and purposes, the President's private army. It was discussed at the meeting that the senior level for the Clinton administration had authorized Delta to be deployed to Waco, Texas. And not just two or three people deployed there, but enough people there to get the job done. As we come to an end, all of us are looking for anything that happened in these hearings after eight days and nights to indicate not that General Reno had something to do with this, but now the President. Well, after we've exhausted that bit, the only one left that I can think of is the butler. Maybe the butler did it. I am surprised you hadn't tried to subpoena the butler by now. Our disappointment could not have been greater as professionals and as humans who care about the plight of others when the investigation was terminated by Congress. As I count up the deaths here, 86, and then if you want to make the leap that Oklahoma City has some connection because it was done on the anniversary of Waco, that's another 160, give or take. So you're talking 246 lives, and for this Congress to try to oversee what in the hell happened and how did it happen, it just seems to be talking about the butler did it, a little capricious, a little frivolous, and that's just my opinion. I yield my time to Mr. McCullough. It was a struggle we've had. I was an attorney gentleman when the Freedom of Inclamation Act was passed, and the government hated the Freedom of Inclamation Act. They hated me for pressing for it because they don't want to be questioned about what they do. They don't want to have to explain what they do. And yet, if you want to be a free society, if you want to have justice, if you want to avoid a police state, you better know what your government does. You better insist upon a right to know what your government does. Even though you have a $20 million investigation, you don't have $20 million answers. There's nothing about Waco I feel good about. But imagine seeing small children disarticulated with bullets and debris and having to pick up their body and their head comes off in your left hand and their body comes apart in your right hand. I mean, that leaves a horrible, absolutely indelible, etched in your brain memory of a tragedy. The prosecutors during our trial tried to prove conspiracy and murder in all 11 defendants were found by a jury to be not guilty of those two charges. And I think that to me is for the president and for any media or anybody in this committee to continue to refer to us as murderers, I feel that's unjust. Governments cannot be proud about what they did on February the 28th. They cannot be proud about what they did on April the 19th and they certainly can't be happy about what this jury said to them today. We found all of the defendants not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and of murder. In essence, there was no way we could say that they did not use firearms. I think the jury totally rejected the scary idea that came out in final argument that someone who would study a certain religion by virtue of the way he thinks would be guilty of a conspiracy to murder federal agents. That, I think, is one clear message that came out of this trial. What we came to realize too late to correct was that we could not have found them guilty of using firearms without having them found them guilty of either conspiracy to murder or murder. Those two charges were tied together. When the judge looked at the jury's verdict, he said that this finding of guilty to the commission of a federal offense is inconsistent. I'll throw it out. But then he changed his mind and when it came to sentencing, he stood the jury's verdict on his head. He said in his sentencing speech that since they were guilty of using a weapon in the commission of a federal offense, he would find that the federal offense was murder and conspiracy to commit murder. He went further on to say you murdered not only the ACF agents but your own co-religionists. Federal sentencing guidelines allow Judge Smith to choose the sentence of between 5 and 40 years. he gave all but two defendants the maximum sentence of 40 years in federal prison. I knew what was going to happen. I knew what the agents were going to say, what they were going to blame myself and others in there for. but, you know, it was just something I had to go through. I'm a school teacher and it's, you know, a good opportunity for me to get away from the kids and forget all about them for a while and just come relax for a while. Paul Fatter was not at the initial February 28th shootout with the ACF but was charged with aiding and abetting and was also given a maximum sentence of 15 years. I don't like being in prison. You know, I don't like this situation. It's a futile experience. I don't understand it. I don't think it's making me a better person or it's, but I believe it's all for a reason. The system had every opportunity to be fair and honest and truthful and treat us properly and they chose not to. They chose to lie, to deceive and to cover up, to cover their positions or their retirement or their, whatever it may be and that's something they got to deal with. They got to look at themselves in the mirror every morning and say that, hey, I made decisions that ended up costing a lot of people their lives. I want to say that Branch Davidians are not anti-government. We're not anti-law enforcement and I'm sorry that there are four agents that are dead and that are lost that are wounded that we lost. 85 Well, friends and family too. and it was unnecessary. I hear a lot of people saying that, you know, that they hope this will never happen again. What happened to us, I believe that what happened to us was just the beginning. Many of us had a heartfelt concern for individuals that chose a particular lifestyle that was a little bit of an off-brand lifestyle and who were cavalierly thought of as unimportant and thought of as people who simply committed suicide or simply burned themselves up. and that claim being so widely held by everything is also the type of thing that the investigator wants to get in under and really find out if there's another slide to the story. They were my life. They meant everything to me and they still do. And I thank God for the hope that one day and I hope it's soon that I'll be able to put my arms around them and play with them again and take care of them. God willing. We cannot put this government in the seat of God and go along with this government and say, look, you can take life anytime you will, please, just like you did right before our very eyes. We had a play-by-play just like it was a football game. But you can't do this. You know, I think the media needs to be the watchdog for the people. I mean, that's why it's the First Amendment. It's not the Second, not the Sixteenth. It's the First Amendment. Somebody, way back when, thought it was very important that the media be the watchdog. I mean, in this system, the checks and balances. And in this instance, it was a slate. If we choose to learn from our mistakes, it is from admitting our errors that we come closer to understanding how we might prevent tragedies like these from happening in the future. those who cannot admit their mistakes, well, all we can do is offer our prayers. Our government isn't a perfect one. Compromise of imperfect people. It can only be as good as we choose to make it. We have come too far to quit or to coast. We must continue to make it better. for we, but not, of our ourselves, become bitter, only bitter. Perhaps the greatest lesson we learned is often the most difficult to remember and so assume right. That is, life is very precious. It happens in moments, in seconds, not minutes, not hours, but in moments. and let us forgive, but let us... ... ... ... ... ... ...