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Call right now. 1-800-289-2646. And tell them, William Cooper sent you. The siege continues in Waco, Texas. A small group of American citizens exercising their rights under Article I of the Constitution, which gives them freedom of religion, and their rights under the Second Article and Amendment to the Constitution, which gives them the right to keep and bear arms. They have committed no crime. They have broken no laws. They are resisting, alone, overwhelming odds in an attempt to stop the encroaching totalitarian socialist state that we will all know as the New World Order. The person on the other end of the line here with me is Mr. Gary Hunt, who's been in Waco, Texas, since shortly after the beginning of this month and has been following everything that's been happening there. And we're going to get his version of what he's seen, what he's heard from the people that he's talked to, the experiences that he's had with the law enforcement agencies and those people known as Branch Davidian who are still held hostage by federal stormtroopers in Waco, Texas. Gary, welcome to the Hour of the Time. Thank you, Bill. What can you tell us about the situation as it stands right now? Well, right now, the siege continues. The optimism of the Branch Davidian is higher than it has been in the first ten days of the siege at least. I think they're becoming aware that America is behind them, or at least the people of America. How are they finding this out, Gary? Do they have a shortwave radio? Do they have regular radios? Are they able to hear what's going on outside that compound? We know at least that they're picking up KGBS out of Dallas, an AM station, and that they are picking up the press conferences that are held every morning at 10.30. Great. Well, they do have a lot of support out here from patriots who really understand what this is all about, and that it really is the second battle in a war that's being fought against the American people. Why did you go to Waco, Texas, Gary? Well, Sunday, February 28th, a friend of mine from Kerrville, Texas, called me and asked me if I knew what was occurring in Waco. At the time, about 11.34, the time I did not, the atmosphere had just begun unfolding. I called the local TV station, Channel 10, which had covered the original series, and in speaking with the reporter there, as he was reading off the monitor, he kept referring to the cult. However, in a casual conversation, he mentioned that they were exact. I realized then that something was beginning to influence the press, and the story sounded quite a bit like what happened last August up in Idaho. I continued to follow that through Thursday of that first week, and by then I realized that something was occurring down here that was going to significantly affect American history or the course of our country for some time to come. By Saturday, then, I was prepared to leave my business and come out here for the duration. I did not expect at the time that it would be nearly this month, but I wanted to see firsthand what was happening and attempt to affect that if I could. I've been out here saying that I do plan on staying until this is over. Well, I commend you for that, Gary, and I think there should be many more people down there lending support to those people, and I firmly believe that if two or three million Americans would show up and just very quietly stand unarmed around that compound, that the siege would have to be lifted at that point and there would have to be a congressional investigation call. However, I don't give too much hope that that's going to happen, but we'll have to wait and see. What happened when you got there? What was the first thing that you did? Well, one of the ideas that I had when I came here between Thursday and Saturday when I flew out, in fact, I had drawn up instructions, was to do exactly what you just mentioned. I had been told by some people first Saturday when I left that there would be between 200 and 500 people here. And this Sunday morning, a number of members, I had been told, had raised to 900 people, as was about 80 people showed up in Waco. And out of those 80 and 20 were willing at one point to go out physically and being unarmed to enter the camp out between the bad forces and the Camp Davidian Church. By the time we were ready to go, that it's likely to perhaps three of us still willing to go as they discussed the potential risk of going against the army out there. Well, that's what happens when things get down to real nitty-gritty, real protecting your country. All of these sheeple out there are willing to send their sons and daughters off to die in the Sohera Desert or someplace in the Middle East where George Bush and all the other oil people can keep their oil and get rich. But when it comes to stand up and protecting their own country, they just melt away into the darkness. Why does that happen? If people would stop and think what is happening here in Waco, that the Branch Davidians are perhaps the only patriots in this country. Right now, with their very lives, they're defending every door in this country and very few of us are willing to offer them any assistance in that effort. That's correct. If you feel with your efforts, there's not a door in this country that's not susceptible to being broken down by the same storm troopers that have attempted to break down their door, Absolutely. And I believe that if the people of the United States lose this battle, because the people in this compound that are surrounded and being held under siege are fighting a battle for all of us, all of our rights and freedoms, all of our creator-endowed rights, all of the protections given to us by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And if we lose this battle, if we lose this battle, I believe that that will signify the end of the United States of America as we have traditionally known it, and will give the total go-ahead for the New World Order to persecute, to hound, to confiscate, to murder, whoever and whatever they will. What do you feel about that, Gary? I feel the same. I've equated the events down here. Randy Weaver was a small family. He was lost in the press. Weichlund, we're all aware of this. This is the equate with Lexington and Concord. The issues are similar. We've got the opposing army. We've got the attempt to secure the weapons that were stored in Concord back 20 years ago. The British have come, and the defenders are standing there. If we think back of those, I guess, about 100 Americans, the first Americans, that stood against the British troops, if they had not been willing to give their lives more cars, then we wouldn't have what was once the greatest nation in the world. It could be, again, if we can develop the same spirit and willingness to defend our neighbors as we would like them to defend us that made the safe and free. Well, President Roosevelt once said, the way to end this problem is to put a chicken in every pot. And what he meant by that is if we can just give everybody something to eat, they'll be happy, and there won't be any rebellions, there won't be any uprisings, there won't be any dissension, and we can go ahead and institute whatever kind of government we want. Do you think the American people have bought into that? Oh, I think they have. I think the Roosevelt forgot to tell them how much that chicken was going to cost. Well, we're finding out now, aren't we? What started this thing, Gary? What happened in Waco, Texas? Let's go back a little bit further. I remember the first press conference that I saw on television after they had lost four, I believe it was four, BATF agents to the gunfire from the compound. They said that they were there because a foreign agent or a foreign person from some other country had informed the State Department that the members of Branch Davidian and Waco, Texas were preparing to commit mass suicide much as the Jonestown mass suicide had occurred in Guyana. Is that what you believe started all this off? Well, I have not heard that story. The story that I've heard down here is that there was an investigation over illegal weapons. That that investigation had gone on for the eight months and the sheriff of the county, Jack Carwell, had participated in the investigation. He had also explained to the BATF that in 1986 when David Cross was charged with attempted murder that there were a number of weapons that were subsequently after the best file returned to David's course. But the investigation had gone in eight months that the last I think two months was in training down at Fort Hood for the actual assault itself. There were three warrants. One was an arrest warrant and two were search warrant. Those are still sealed, so we don't know what the purpose was. The BATF, early on when they were reported with me, did say that it was an illegal weapon arrest and that one of the warrants was for illegal weapons. We've heard a number of stories and have such similar allegations that mass suicide disappear very quickly when reality is a common sample. Of course, if they were going to commit mass suicide, they would have already done it. I mean, what more opportune time when the whole world is looking at them? That's just absolutely absurd. If they haven't committed mass suicide by now, then they never intended to in the first place. what we saw was on the network news. It specifically stated that the State Department had received word from a foreign source that they were going to commit mass suicide. Now, right off the bat, I knew that that was a lie because if that was true, there's no federal law against committing suicide. Federal troops have no authority, jurisdiction, or anything else there. But yet, they sent the FBI and the BATF, which is, for those of you out there who may not understand what that means, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and they physically raided the place with SWAT team and anti-terrorist units without even trying to go through the motion of picking this guy up. We know for a fact that he goes into Waco once a week and eats in the same restaurant at the same table every night, you know, at that time, every week, at the same time. And if they really wanted him, all they had to do was wait for him to go in, pick him up by himself. We also know he's always cooperated with local officials, and whenever they've asked him to come in and speak to them, he's never hesitated to do it. So why do you think that if they were after him, why do you think they waited until these people were having their religious service and then raided them during the middle of death? Well, we know from the New York County and the FBI and ATF and the press conference that there was an element of surprise involved that they had to move the raid up. And they called it a raid from the beginning, not an arrest, but a raid. that they would get up Monday the first, Sunday the 28th, to maintain the ultimate surprise. They probably took Sunday hoping that everybody would be in a prayer service or a Bible reading and hoping so that they could come in the second floor windows with their automatic German rifle and would be able to secure these incompetence with no resistance. But Gary, in light of their statements that they're only after Koresh, and first it was because they're all going to commit mass suicide, and then they were cited as being terrorists. On news conferences they called them terrorists, but we know they didn't go after them because they're terrorists, because they've never terrorized anybody. And now they're talking about federal firearms violations, and they were after Koresh to do this. Why did they raid the compound when everybody was there? Why didn't they wait until they could get Koresh alone and avoid this whole scenario? Well, I think that there was your motivation behind that. The only logical completion I can come to is this was a training exercise and what they intend to be doing all over the country, and the reason they had so many people was probably the benefit of training 100 to 120 troops in one on-the-job training experience how to break down doors and arrest marginalized people with the massive force. Well, I think you're right on there. I think that's exactly why they did it. I think they wanted resistance. I think they wanted to create an incident. I think they wanted to make Christians look bad. I believe that they wanted to make anybody who owns a firearm look bad, even though that right is protected under the Constitution, and religion is protected under Article I of the Constitution, and a lot of other things. What have you found out since you've been there, Gary? What's the truth about what's happening according to what you know and what you've found out? Well, the truth is best I can tell is not what the FBI tell us and other comments are changing the story. I do think the truth lies fundamentally in what you said. Abraham Lincoln, I think, told us many years ago that the Constitution should be preached from every pulpit. Now, if they don't want the Constitution in this country, obviously, they've got to destroy the pulpit. And it's easy to make a man like David Korich, who has a very strong following, look evil. And so they felt that they could go in with allegations of child abuse. The Jonestown scenario, which was brought up a couple of weeks ago, and dropped very rapidly when they realized how foolish it was. It might have been the second time it's going to occur. And we now know all these things are false, but there are millions of Americans out there who watch their television and read their newspaper, and they believe anything the authorities tell them, because they don't believe that the authorities would ever lie to them, even though they find out every year that they do. For instance, we know that Korich is not a polygamist. We know that he has one wife. Is that correct? My understanding is that he has one wife. And he has two children. Also, according to what we've discovered, is that correct? I'm not sure how many children he's got. I do understand that one of his daughters, a two-year-old daughter, was killed in the nursery. That's what we understand also. She was in the nursery, and the BATF people were firing blindly into the nursery after they threw a gas grenade in there. Well, they continue to assert that they are trained to pick their target. Oh, they always. Why would they want to kill a three-year-old girl? That's correct. Absolutely. Why? The truth is that they probably weren't picking targets at all. Our information is that they were firing blindly into the nursery and couldn't see anyway because of the cloud of gas from the gas grenades. We do have some videos showing, too, a curtain being pulled back, and the stormtrooper could not pull it down. Obviously, they did not stick their head in to observe what was inside. But then, after a short jump, there was smoke coming out as if a flashbang were thrown in that room. That seems rather indiscriminate to me. And when you consider the potential for damage from a flashbang or percussion grenade, there is video evidence of lack of discrimination in their assault. Absolutely. Have the federal agents taken any means to suppress the truth of what's going on? Have they confiscated videotape? Have they threatened news reporters? Anything like that? Well, there are a number of abuses along that line. We'll start at the beginning. We do know that Channel 10 had two cameras that covered the initial assault. Those were the videos that we're seeing at first but had not been seen after the first showing my understanding in talking with a number of people is that those received by the FBI has an evidence. We, the FBI, or the ATF, I'm sorry, the ATF has admitted that they had at least one camera rolling during the entire event. We did, obviously, again, a training exercise and they wanted to show how to do it. I'm sure they won't use super training in the future but that, again, is a curative evidence. Mr. Lewis Beam was down here. two weeks ago, Saturday, I think it was. He, under legal presidential, was in the press conference, and he asked a question. He had a question or something to the effect that, can we take it by the Gestapo attacks because they were used in this way that this is the beginning of a police state in America. Well, he has escorted out of the press conference and has had to return. You mean he was escorted out and there was no answer given? There was apparently a bubble stutter answer, but no concrete answer. And the rest of the press court stood there and allowed this to happen without protest? That's correct. Well, I've come up with the terms that I used to refer to them as establishment press. Now I call them bubble press because no matter how complex the news, they've got to encapsulate that in the two-minute bubble. I think they're a pack of miserable, traitorous cowards who haven't got the backbone or the balls to stand up and do what they know is right. They've sold themselves to somebody, I don't know who or why, and for what. I mean, journalists don't even get paid that much. Why would they go along with this? Well, I think some of it is pressure. I have a legitimate newspaper. I have gone to the press conference four days in a row, and then on a Thursday, the Thursday after Louis Bing was in there. I was stopped at the door and taken over to the side room, and they asked me a number of questions about my newspaper and questioned the legitimacy of it. Finally, they agreed that it was legitimate. I'm not sure what legitimate newspaper means, but they determined that it was legitimate, and allowed me in. It was on Thursday. I went to the press conference on Friday. Saturday, I did not go, but Saturday evening, it was a bit of an incident out at the press site near the complex. As a result of that, I was under the credentials of AEN out of Indiana. They had an agreement with me for me to go out with them to cover a portion of the story and look at the press site near the complex. It was the only time I've been there. I convened. We were told that they were falsified by the credentials, and I was obligated by the FBI and finally released. from Sunday, I was not allowed in the press conference. From Sunday to Friday, I kept trying to get an explanation as to why I was not allowed, because my credentials had been proven legitimate. Only one reporter stood up for my position, and stick with us with the Dallas Observer. I will say that of all the press people, he is the only one that doesn't feel that there are different levels of press, and virtually every member of the press should be allowed into the press conferences. Well, absolutely. I know that Article I of the Constitution of the United States of America makes no distinction between the different levels of the press. It says that the freedom of the press shall not be infringed. I think one definition of press credentials now, and it's probably correct, is press credentials allow you the right that every citizen should have in this country. That's true. That's very true. Let's go to the beginning of this, Gary. Do you think that the people at Branch Davidian knew that this raid was going to occur? They may have. They had been investigated by a TV program that was more clear of them, and I think the same things going on up in Montana right now, they had been investigated by the Waco Tribune. The Waco Tribune wrote their story on Saturday, and now the FBI ATF are trying to accuse the Waco Tribune of leaking information to the Branch Davidians. That's kind of interesting. saying, I always liked it when I could tell you a secret, but I didn't expect you to have the privilege to speak it more than I privileged it myself when I told you. Not only that, it sounds like the Fed is admitting that they were briefing the local news media that something was going to happen. Well, it appears to be, and we understand, too, that in Oklahoma right now, they have finished the set for a FBI story working on the raid in Waco. Apparently, that was under construction before the raid began. You mean they were filming a movie about this particular raid, and it was finished before the raid even began? Well, the movie was the set for another construction when the raid began. Oh, I see. They were building a set to film a movie about this raid before the raid ever began. That's my understanding, and I think that's been confirmed in the press conferences. This is incredible. So, as far as the secret, the FBI and ATF, or the ATF only at that time, expected other people to respect the frequency of the figment, but they could not respect it themselves. This is common knowledge. Now, also, Belmeade, the city, well, the French Division complex is near Elk, which is a fork in the road, but Belmeade is a little town just down the road from now, that the ATF forces suited up right off the main road, Highway 84, in the city parking area, the Civic Center, that morning. So here's between 80 and 120 people putting on their black battles here. In a small town where anything unusual travels by word of mouth like lightning. Right, or even by telephone. Sure. So, by going public two hours before the raid, when they were suiting up, there's not a high degree of secrecy that they could anticipate. Well, I don't think that they wanted any secret, Gary. I think that they wanted to ensure there would be armed opposition. I think that they wanted a show here to try to convince the American people, number one, that Christians are fanatical lunatics, and number two, anybody that owns a weapon is dangerous to everybody else. When we were kids, we used to play with firetackers. Every once in a while, we got one with a fast fuse and ended up with sore fingers. I think that's what's had to happen here. They certainly are going to have some sore fingers. They expected that there would be casualties on the other side, perhaps their own side. That's evidence by the fact that they did not advise their own people what to expect, that there might be automatic weapons. Whether there are or not, we still have to determine. That's true. We don't hear any automatic fire at all, so it's hard to tell if there was no automatic fire. Well, I can tell you from my experience in Vietnam is that unless a person has been practicing and using an automatic weapon for some time, that they usually never can hit anything, and most people who fire automatic weapons who haven't been using them and aren't expert with them and haven't been firing them for quite some time usually expend all the ammunition shooting at the moon. So the fact that four BATF officers and several others were wounded, four were killed and several others were wounded, would tell me that these people in there either have had a hell of a lot of practice with automatic weapons, and I don't believe that they have any, number one, or number two, were just good shots who were protecting something that they held dear, so they made sure that their bullets counted. Let's go to the beginning of this, Gary, and how did all this come about? What happened? Oops, I'm sorry, we can't do that. Gary, hold on, we've got to take a short break. Folks, don't go away, we'll be right back after this pause. How did all this come about? What happened? Well, you've already told us that they came into town and were suiting up hours before the thing happened, and that obviously the press knew what was going to happen because they accused the press of warning these people. So this whole thing was planned well in advance. Press were obviously briefed. They came in early that day and suited up in plain view of all the townspeople, which is just asking for these people to be warned. And then what did they do? Well, the Channel 10 newsmen were present at the site before the ATF rolled in. So that proves a prior briefing without any shadow of a doubt. Right. And the ATF people were friendly towards the aircraft people at that point in time. The Waco Tribune was out there. The Waco Tribune's vehicle was run over by a Bradley later on, allegedly pushing it out of the road. It was flat like a pancake. But originally, early on, before it unfolded the way it did, there was an agreeable nature to the ATF forces towards the press. After the ATF got their backside shot up as badly as they did, they were very antagonistic towards the press, as was evidenced by the Waco Tribune vehicle being rolled over and some of the attitudes that we've seen of some of the videos of their angry voices towards the press. They got caught. Things went wrong. They got caught. And they didn't like the idea of the thing public all of a sudden. It didn't go their way. Well, they're obviously extremely embarrassed, as they should be. So how did they get in there? What started all this thing off? Well, here as I can tell, we're talking with the people here in the original video. There was apparently just one time on Channel 10. The ATF vehicles rolled up into the complex area. The bad forces jumped out of the vehicles. in and began running towards the building. Some were hiding behind their vehicles. Apparently, they did have a plan, and people had their jackets. There were at least two cattle trucks with parts. Out of those trucks jumped stormtroopers with ladders, aluminum ladders. They ran up and began climbing up to the rooftops to enter server rent papers through second-story windows. Now, my understanding at that point is that David Forage came out inside. There were three pieces of evidence that we have that had to support this. Sharon Wheeler, the first week, was saying, we were outgunned. They had guns that could shoot through doors. We did not. About a week later, Bob Riggs from the FBI stated that David Forage ran back inside, slammed the door, and then they began firing inside the cost parts. Now, why would she say they have guns that could shoot through doors and we do not? Well, the only thing that I don't quite understand, Max, I'm not sure. I understand that we're at 16, probably, possibly, AK-47s inside. There's no indication that there was any 50 caliber machine gun or semi-automatic fire from inside. But the storm troops were using MP5s, which is 9mm determined made, and I guess there was M16s or M15s as well, and they were using 9mm pistols. Well, we know that all of those will shoot through a normal door. A normal door, now. Assuming this is built more like a farm, it could have been an inch and a half or two inches within the door. I don't know why she said that, but it does tell us something. And then, of course, she could not have been shot through the door. Yep. Sharon, we were as correct. Well, if she's correct, it sounds to me like she was trying to say something that the American people would interpret as meaning that these people had some kind of terrible weapons when all the indications and all of the testimony that I've heard and that my agents from CAGI, the Citizens Agency for Joint Intelligence have heard, is that they don't have these kinds of weapons at all. And if they do, they certainly haven't used them yet. Well, basically, the story of 50 caliber was very strong. It dropped after I've turned out a press release regarding that. I'll get into that in a minute, but I'd like to show how this evidence shows that the ATF must have fired first. Okay, well, we've got Sharon Wheeler saying that they could ship two doors we could not. And we got Bob Rick and saying that David Corish ran back and fired the people inside, then began firing. Well, David Corish, you know, was shot inside, and neither the arm or the hand received two shots. Presumably they must have happened before he went back inside because then he was inside the fort of Bob Dober. So I think we've got an admission on the part of Mr. Rickson that he built to mention that the ATF had opened fire before David ran back inside. There was a statement earlier on when David was allowed access to one of the local radio stations where he was obviously in pain from the injury, but he was saying I'd run outside to see what had happened. They had their guns out. I said, don't shoot, they shot me, and I ran back inside. So we put all three of these together, and I said, I think there could be little doubt that the ATF began firing. Now, speaking with the people here, we saw your early videos. They had estimated to me that between a couple dozen and a couple hundred shots were fired by the ATF before the people from inside began firing. This conforms to all the information that we've received from everyone that we've talked to. Before we continue, Gary, there's been all this stuff in the news and the newspapers that Koresh claims that he's Jesus Christ. Does he really do that? Well, I have never met anybody or heard him on any of the broadcasts that they've given say that he was Jesus Christ. We have not been able to find anyone who's ever heard him say that either. In fact, we have found people who don't even like him or his church who say that he's never said that he's Jesus Christ. Even though they don't like him and don't like his church. Go ahead. Continue. I think you might say in a small extent that he represents Christ, but then I compare that to the Pope in the Catholic Church who talks with God. I don't see that there's much difference except the size of the two relations. Well, there's quite a bit of difference. The Pope claims that he is God and that he's Christ's vicar on earth. But be that as it may, I don't... We should get the VATF to go to the Vatican now. Absolutely. The doctor has automatic platforms. So what happened next? Well, the next significant event was the VATF obviously got their backside kicked. Something totally unexpected. They had four dead. How many wounded? 16 wounded. Four dead and 16 wounded. 16 wounded. Now, what they did then is made a plea to David Forrest to allow them to move their dead and wounded from the battlefield. Yes. And David Forrest graciously, like a good Christian, allowed that to happen. The ATF, though, then denied medical supplies until the following Saturday, almost a week later, and still would not provide the sort of supplies that David asked for. David and his people did not believe in AMA medicine. They eat health foods. They believe in health remedies. I have tried to get even the Red Cross involved. Surprisingly, even the National Red Cross in Washington refused to cooperate to any degree in attempting to get humane supplies into David Forrest that would be health foods and remedies. So the FBI or the ATF expects the humanitarian considerations out of the people inside, but at the same time, they did not have the same privilege in the people inside. Right. And then they called them terrorists. Well, they must be terrorists. How else could you justify turning out power? No, they called the people inside terrorists. Well, they must be terrorists because how else could the ATF justify cutting off their power? war. I mean, if we believe the ATF needs to decide, these people are worse than most of the enemies we've fought in any war because we've always allowed them medical suppliers through the Red Cross. So I think we have to assume that the ATF is fresh. These people are terrorists. There could be no other answer. Well, there has to be another answer. And we've got to be careful with what we say over the air if we don't really mean it, simply because there's a lot of people out there who might really call sheeple, who might hear this broadcast and believe that you mean verbatim what you're saying right now. Let's clarify that. We've got some very humane people inside. We've had the ATF allege that they are holding their people hostage. But really, they've allowed the relief of a number of their people to come out. I say relief, that's a misnomer. We have allowed their people to come out. Those who chose to come out, the hostages of the people inside of the caramplish, the hostage holders or the FBI denying them free access to That's correct. The people inside are armed, and they're not being held hostage by Karash or anybody else. They are in there because they want to be in there, and they're standing for principle and for ideals and for creator-endowed rights. They're standing for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and they are indeed being held hostage, but by the federal government and its agencies acting illegally, in my estimation. Are there military troops there, Gary? I've seen videos, and I'm trying to get copies of people in U.S. Army uniforms. Now, we've got some funny circumstances. Just recently, in a press conference, the ATF, or the FBI, in an attempt to justify the use of three National Guard helicopters in the initial assault, said that the National Guard was using infrared to determine if there was an amphetamine lab inside of this church. They did detect a hot spot. I would assume that hot spot was probably the kitchen because on Sunday morning, it would take quite a bit of heat to cook food for 120 people. But that was to justify the National Guard helicopters, so we know they were involved. The Bradleys, apparently, were National Guard and were on loan. The operators were National Guard or ATF. ATF, one of the press conferences, indicated that recently Waco Caribbean vehicle was run over, is that their troopers are not trained in driving Bradley. When they brought the tanks up from Fort Hood, my understanding was that the National Guard would not supply drivers for the tanks or the tanks themselves, and that active duty United States Army personnel were brought into this engagement. Now, to my understanding now, we've got the first military vehicles being used again, directly again, American citizens in the middle of the war. In what is supposed to be a law enforcement action, and the Constitution and the laws of this land expressly forbid the military in any way, shape, or form from being used for enforcement of the law. Is that correct? That's correct. Now, you mentioned something, law enforcement, and remember, these used to be chief officers, now they're law enforcement. They're serving a very simple arrest warrant. When I was a kid, I remember that no-knock warrant, any time a no-knock warrant was issued, the press made a big deal of it. It was a rare exception that a no-knock could be issued. It's become a way of life. I mean, there's no-knock, they were entering windows and everything else. You know, the world has changed a lot in my lifetime. And to call this law enforcement when they use 120 people to serve an arrest warrant to search warrant, I think we've gone beyond the police state. We've actually stepped over into a military state. Well, that's what I believe, and I think it happened a long time ago, and they're just now letting us know and exercising the powers that they've had by treaty under the United Nations Charter and through the UN Participation Act, the Disarmament Agency, the Disarmament Act, and many, many others that people don't know much about but are just beginning to become aware of. What did you, what have you found out about the, about the way that this was carried out? For instance, you were telling me earlier off the air about the ATF agents pulling aside curtains and throwing something inside. Could you go over that with us? Well, we have a video that was broadcast a few times on the first day and was six-monthly edited down considerably. In that video, there are four ATF soldiers climbing a ladder to a window. Now, that window was identified in a map produced by, or a drawing produced by ATF to be to their ammunition and storage area on the second floor. It would seem foolish to destroy ammunition on the second floor. It would seem more practical to store it in an underground bunker. One of the people that got out later identified that room was David Forrest's bedroom. At any rate, these four troopers climbed the ladder, one wise prone facing up the gabled roof to protect against anybody coming over the roof. The other three then are right out the window. One of them begins breaking out the window. Then there's a gap in the video and then you see a smoke billowing out of the window as if the flashbang were thrown in there, the percussion grenade. And again, three VATF agents climbed in the window. Then there's a gap in the film. And then you see a VATF... Now this, this next scene is one that you see over and over again. You see a VATF soldier right next to the window with gun in hand facing the window. And then four or five rounds come through the wall behind him, large holes explode in the wall. Then one strikes apparently right by his Kevlar helmet knocking him down where he lies still on the roof for a few seconds. And then he got up slowly and started moving towards the ladder. Now I'm not sure if the other three stormtroopers were still inside that room when that occurred. If they were, they must have been killed inside. Or they were doing the firing that hit the one trooper. Our information is that two of the dead, the VATF personnel were killed by the Branch Davidians and two were killed by their own fire. Do you have any confirmation of any of that? Well, I've been trying to get as much proof of anything as possible and so I end up relying a lot on the ATF conferences. We have been told that two were killed on a roof and two were killed on the ground. In the first conference the other day, there was an officer Williams, or Agent Williams, who apparently was shot, went down, got back up, began firing, shot again and went down. However, Williams, obviously apparently reports that he was only shot once and that shot entered the side of his neck and went out the other side. Now, the FBI then, when they described what happened to Officer Williams is he was behind cover. Now, the difference between cover and concealment is simple. Concealment hides you visually but doesn't protect you from bullets. Cover is protected from bullets. if he was undercover and was facing and firing towards the rest of the video, it is hard to understand how a bullet went from side to side through his neck. They would not have been exposed to hostile fire and its purest in the day. Perhaps friendly fire that killed Agent Williams. That is the only one that I can say appears to, from the evidence that I've been able to gather, appears to have been a friendly fire casualty. How about children, Gary? Initially, I heard that possibly a number of children were killed in the initial raid. The only one we know for sure was he did versus a two-year-old daughter. The videos that have come out in the past few days on the FBI by their own count has 12 children. They claim that they have seen pictures of five other children. So, according, one of those 17 children is supposed to be dead. So, I don't know if the other five exist or not. Some of the rumors here, which is one of the areas of attack, is the children's living quarters and nursery area. Some of the people believe here that perhaps more children were killed by the discriminant virus that the ATF calls that they're supposed to pick their targets before they fire. Apparently, they did pick at least one child, perhaps more, to be targeted. Okay. Well, Gary, what do you think is going to transpire in the next few days? Well, a lot of progress has been made. When I first got here, I spoke with Commander Maurice Cook of the Texas Rangers and asked him, well, with Eric Leiter and Nancy La Rosa, we did file a criminal complaint against the Texas Rangers and the sheriff and serve them for failure to perform their judicial duty. Shortly after that, I spoke to Commander Cook and he told me that politically he was not allowed to get involved in this. And I told him what my objectives were, and that was first, to save lives and second, to make sure that justice was served. politics would allow he would take over the investigation and or jurisdiction. This morning I spoke to Commander Cook Wednesday, Tuesday morning. I spoke to Commander Cook and he assured I had heard from the FBI that the investigation jurisdiction has been turned over to them. He did confirm that when the time comes for the investigation that the Texas Rangers will conduct the investigation. He assured me that if people weren't got right now he would have Rangers on the same work in 10 minutes. He assured me that they would make every effort to make sure that there is no destruction or tampering or creating of evidence. And I feel very comfortable that Commander Cook understands the implications and the potential I have sent a copy of the mountain of life to him so he understands what happened in Idaho and I feel very comfortable at least now that justice will be served when this is over we do have to assume that there will be a subpoena power that will get the videos and that perhaps we will find out that the crime was not committed by people inside but in fact committed by the ATF forces and the office of the contract. All the information that we've gleaned is that that's exactly what happened that the only crimes that were committed have been committed by the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Now the information that we have gleaned so far that we've already done in one show has come partly from Nancy La Rosa and her friend whom you mentioned Eric Leiter and several of the residents who live in the vicinity. How long are you going to stay on the scene Gary? As long as the FBI is here I'll be here. Well that may be for some time now. Do you see any signs of the people inside the compound weakening? No, in fact let me relate something rather interesting. I'm a Vietnam veteran as well and we both understand what might be called cease mentality Yes. When you're under fire and there's no relief in sight and you're surrounded outnumbered of arms there's a futility and a frustration. On Monday the 8th we heard David Groesch through the FBI claiming that he could blow badly 50 feet in the air I think it might have been employed by the FBI to plant the idea that there might be explosives in there but at any rate there appeared to be a cease mentality inside the frustration. On Tuesday morning on the Ron Engelman show at a radio station that we know they listened to Ron Engelman and I had worked out an attempt to get some communication out of the complex the previous Friday the 5th they had worked in determining if there was need for medical supplies I was introduced to say I landed there and the editor of the newspaper and I was there and then a series of questions were posed and there's a single question do you want somebody to come in would you call a guaranteed period on safety if he came in do you want somebody that's not as familiar with law enforcement somebody who's looking for a peaceful solution the antenna was located which was the signal for an affirmative answer that it was worked out the previous this Friday the second question posed then was to grant Jerry Hunt power of attorney to represent you and to enter the complex and again this time was described as vigorous movement of the antenna and would feel that the power of attorney was made by that that has not been denied by anybody at this time less than two hours or one of the discussions also is using a white sheet to indicate the window to indicate things but within two hours the first sign came out and read God help us and in the press we saw optimism come out of the complex for the first time and virtually broke the siege mentality and broke the FBI's efforts to oppress these people into submission and their optimism has stayed up since then a big degree an attorney from Houston has gone in the lab in two days to speak to David Corish there is still a notification that they're ready to surrender we're hoping that the things will change I've spoken with Melvin Bell in his office and he's got a representative coming out here and I think he'll be working with us a big degree as Mr. Bar Attorney and Melvin Bell has reputation for being a fighter we've discussed jurisdictions we can't discuss our tactics at this point nor should you but I do think that there is a possibility even more justice could prevail if we can get involved and get in and speak to Mr. Corish and that's what our efforts will be well Gary we thank you and we wish you luck and we'll be checking in with you from time to time as well as with our other CAGI members who are down in Wakefield Texas covering events as they happen until next time folks good night and God bless you all and to all of the hostages in the compound known as Branch Davidian God bless you and keep you safe amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me I was was lost but now I'm found was blind but now I see a grace a grace that calls my heart to fear and grace my fears reach a grace the breath love the hour I would to see through many dangers tone andlles We have already come For grace and honor Save us far And grace will lead us all When we live there Ten thousand years Right by the end of the dawn We know that they To see God's praise And when we have begun Amazing grace How sweet the sound That they are blessed Like me Sing Thank you Thank you